Catch Over Dugout, Into Dugout; No Catch & Carry Here!

[MadMax]

https://www.mlb.com/video/colin-rea-in-play-out-s-to-bryan-de-la-cruz
 

I can’t seem to embed the video, but here we have a MLBU (Brennan Miller) correctly adjudging a catch by F3 over the dugout, then falling / stepping into the dugout as his momentum carries him. The F3 is further supported by his teammate in the dugout, but while Bob Uecker notes that in his broadcast, it is irrelevant – the ball is already dead upon F3 (Santana) stepping fully into the dugout after making the catch.

R1 was awarded 2B. 
 

[Senor Azul]

I wonder if Bob Uecker knows about this rule.

5.09(a)(1) Catch Comment 

If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is "held up" and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

I wonder if Bob Uecker knows about this rule.

5.09(a)(1) Catch Comment 

If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is "held up" and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

He should know about it since it's been around a while. But the nuance has changed. OBR and NCAA had similar rules where a fielder could make a legal catch, momentum carrying him into the dugout but not falling either because of his balance or support of a teammate, and the ball would stay live and the fielder could throw. Where I'm hazy on the throw is if it could come from some deadball territory but the fielder had to return to live ball territory in some cases. I'm hazy because I wiped that info from my brain cells when MLB and NCAA revised the catch and carry to the more simple rule. In the OP the legality of the catch over the dugout is only determined by the fielder having one foot on or over the playing surface which includes the lip of the dugout. Once he went in it doesn't matter if he falls or is kept from falling. 1 base award to runners. 

[ousafe]

29 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

.... In the OP the legality of the catch over the dugout is only determined by the fielder having one foot on or over the playing surface ...

And neither foot on the ground in DBT.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

And neither foot on the ground in DBT.

Good point rule wise. For the OP we should say "and the other foot not on the ground in the dugout".

[GiantEngineer]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:18 PM, ousafe said:

In the OP the legality of the catch over the dugout is only determined by the fielder having one foot on or over the playing surface ...

Is this interpreted as "in the air" or literally over the field as if there is a plane at the fence line? 

[ousafe]

48 minutes ago, GiantEngineer said:

Is this interpreted as "in the air" or literally over the field as if there is a plane at the fence line? 

Yo @GiantEngineer careful with your quoting! I did not author those words, they were written by the esteemed @Jimurray.  But the way you quoted, it looks as if i wrote it.  I will let Jim or others answer your question. 

[GiantEngineer]

@ousafe my mistake on how I quoted.

General question, is it possible to quote a quote and get it to show up correct or only the original text?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 MiLBUM (section 5.30, p. 65):

In order to make a legal catch, the fielder must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or other out-of-play surface.

[GiantEngineer]

 Thank you. I guess I never noticed that requirement is different between MLB and NFHS. 

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, GiantEngineer said:

Is this interpreted as "in the air" or literally over the field as if there is a plane at the fence line? 

If you are talking about the location of the ball when caught there is no plane. The fielder only has to have legal feet positioning at the time of the catch. A kamikaze fielder could make a diving catch of a ball 6 feet inside the dugout or little less kamikaze catch 6 feet into a grassy dead ball area as long as no foot was touching the ground in dead ball territory and one foot was in the air over live ball territory.

[Velho]

7 hours ago, GiantEngineer said:

Thank you. I guess I never noticed that requirement is different between MLB and NFHS. 

What is the NFHS rule?

[GiantEngineer]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

If you are talking about the location of the ball when caught there is no plane.

I was asking about the foot position but you answered the question.

 

 

4 hours ago, Velho said:

What is the NFHS rule?

NFHS removes the foot requirement and allows both feet to be in the air before any body part hits the ground for a valid catch. Also, you can straddle the out-of-play line. 

[Senor Azul]

The applicable NFHS rule is 8-3-3d but it doesn't provide much detail.

The informative answer that Mr. GiantEngineer gave you comes from a couple of case plays (2.9.1 Situation C Comment and 5.1.1 Situation L). To a lesser extent case play 5.1.1 Situation P is helpful also.

[noumpere]

This is (or used to be) one of the plays where all three codes differed -- either in the fielder requirements or in whether a line marking DBT (e.g, "fence line extended")was in LBT or DBT

[Senor Azul]

Carl Childress wrote in his Baseball Rule Differences (2016 edition) that there were 12 major rules where each level treats the situation differently. I believe that is what Mr. noumpere referred to in his post from 4 hours ago.

For example each rule set (at that time) treated the designated hitter rule differently. The hidden ball trick was officiated differently by each rule set also.

Unfortunately the catch and carry rule is not included in Carl Childress's list of rules. The closest rule from his list of 12 is throwing from a dead ball area where each level differed.

That rule was mentioned in this thread by Mr. Jimurray but is not really the topic in this thread.