Can a player go back to an open base on a subsequent play?

[TLo]

Scenario:

No Outs. Runner on third base and no other runners on base. Next batter comes up and after being pitched to, hits the ball directly to the third base player. The batter gets to first base and stays on first. The third base player gets the runner (that was on third) in a run down between third and home. Short stop moves over and covers third base as the third base player moves towards the runner. Third base player throws ball to shortstop (who is covering third base) as the runner decided to go back to third. Shortstop that was covering third drops the ball and misses the tag. However, the runner touches third base but their momentum pulls them off third base. The short stop picks up the ball and goes to tag the runner but misses the tag. The runner sees second base is open and runs to second base. No defensive players were covering second base and the runner successfully makes it to second base.

Questions:
Once a player advances to a base on one play can they go backwards to an open base on a subsequent play?  
Is the runner, that went from third back to second base, safe?

Where I'm getting stuck is whether or not the runner can revert back to a previous base on a subsequent play.

But my gut tells me this would result in all players being safe with runners on first and second and still no outs. Next batter up and PLAY BALL!

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[beerguy55]

42 minutes ago, Velho said:

From JR 2022 pg 52

[Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when]
(6)
he runs the bases in reverse order. If a runner runs the bases in reverse order solely to confuse the defense or to travesty the game, the penalty is the same as in thrown ball interference, i.e., the ball is dead and the runner is out. [5.09b101][NFHS8-4-2n] A runner often returns to a base for a legitimate reason (caught fly ball, missed base, foul ball, ignorance) and such action should not be interpreted as reverse base running; if such runner reaches a previous base, he cannot be put out while on that base unless he is forced to leave it. Once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base. If he attempts to do so, he is declared out. [5.06a1-Comment]

Doesn't resolve the question of interpretation presented above.

Same question lives on - does it mean the runner may NEVER return to the previous base...or does that restriction only apply while the pitcher is in contact with the rubber? ie. when the pitcher disengages may the runner return to the previous base.  (provided he isn't doing so to confuse the defense/cause travesty)

Some of us believe it is the first, some the latter.

The Segura play supports the latter, unless the rule was mishandled.

[Tborze]

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=partner-pub-2064801920729129:7491051059&q=https://umpire-empire.com/topic/52865-r2-safe-atfirst/page/2/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiGhe_jnpuBAxWvnYQIHXnRC7AQFnoECAMQAg&usg=AOvVaw0x_aIZTvxukGcKfnbysi3j
 

Found this. Any help?

[beerguy55]

34 minutes ago, Tborze said:

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=partner-pub-2064801920729129:7491051059&q=https://umpire-empire.com/topic/52865-r2-safe-atfirst/page/2/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiGhe_jnpuBAxWvnYQIHXnRC7AQFnoECAMQAg&usg=AOvVaw0x_aIZTvxukGcKfnbysi3j
 

Found this. Any help?

Yes - after reading the 2013 post by @johnnyg08 I changed some Google parameters and did find a few articles on it:

MLB: Segura shouldn't have been allowed to 'steal' first | FOX Sports

Upon further (MLB) review, Segura shouldn't have stolen first base - SBNation.com

Jean Segura should've been called out - ESPN - Jayson Stark Blog- ESPN

 

Looks like MLB did clarify that Segura should have been called out, under either the 5.06(a) comment, (7.01 then) or even the abandonment rule as he was "heading to the dugout".

So regarding the OP - R3 at TOP may not retreat to second base.

[Tborze]

See the last post by @johnnyg08

[834k3r]

On 9/1/2023 at 6:58 PM, Jimurray said:

J-R, one of whom might still be contacted needs to clarify how many times "once" is. In the meantime, absent MLB telling us the Segura play was kicked, aside from a missed tag and coach assist, it appears MLB umpires allowed Segura to return to his previously occupied base without the pitcher being in position and not confusing the defense and not making a travesty.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, once is an adverb defined as "1. one time only, 2. at one time in the past; formerly, and 3. at any time; ever." it's clear to me from the JR notes they are using the third definition.

17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

He was not called out either because the crew kicked it and MLB swept it under the rug or because the prohibition resets every time a pitcher takes the rubber.

Based on Occam's Razor and my above statement, I believe the second half of your statement (I bolded it) to be accurate.

[beerguy55]

2 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, once is an adverb defined as "1. one time only, 2. at one time in the past; formerly, and 3. at any time; ever." it's clear to me from the JR notes they are using the third definition.

Based on Occam's Razor and my above statement, I believe the second half of your statement (I bolded it) to be accurate.

Too late - Occam's Razor is that beerguy had some memory somewhere in his head that MLB said that Segura should have been out, but simply couldn't find the source material for that memory.  That's been found now.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Too late - Occam's Razor is that beerguy had some memory somewhere in his head that MLB said that Segura should have been out, but simply couldn't find the source material for that memory.  That's been found now.

That clears it up for me. I have to retract any supposition that MLB swept it under the rug and dial back that the crew kicked it. They applied a rule that needed further interpretation.

[Senor Azul]

Now that this question has been definitively answered I can mention another similar question that was posed here 9 years ago. It asked whether it was legal to take a lead toward a previous base.

The scenario was about a runner who had just stolen second base and on the next pitch took a lead toward first base. The overwhelming majority of us said "yes" it is OK. 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Now that this question has been definitively answered I can mention another similar question that was posed here 9 years ago. It asked whether it was legal to take a lead toward a previous base.

The scenario was about a runner who had just stolen second base and on the next pitch took a lead toward first base. The overwhelming majority of us said "yes" it is OK. 

I wasn't here nine years ago so I'll chime in now.

Runner out.

Seems like an attempt to confuse the defense in running (stepping?) in reverse order.  I think this case is solid even without the direction that a runner can't retreat to a previous base after the pitcher takes the rubber....that comment, I think, only solidifies the position.  If you're not allowed to go back to first base, then any intentional act to move towards that base must be an attempt to confuse or cause travesty.

And frankly, even without the clarification, it's never been in dispute what the runner couldn't do while the pitcher was still on the rubber....he can't retreat to the previous base.

It's also important to note that the runner is immediately out per the MLB clarification...not that you have to chase them down and tag them somewhere.

Having said that, I can see some arguing that he's not out until he reaches said base.  I don't believe that is the intent of the rule. But I'll let the philosophers decide.

I wouldn't call it abandonment as it's not a clear indication of moving towards the dugout or believing the play is over.  But I can see the argument based on the same mentality - he's only allowed to go one direction.

 

He's out one or two, and perhaps three, rules.

 

[Tborze]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Now that this question has been definitively answered I can mention another similar question that was posed here 9 years ago. It asked whether it was legal to take a lead toward a previous base.

The scenario was about a runner who had just stolen second base and on the next pitch took a lead toward first base. The overwhelming majority of us said "yes" it is OK. 

Not me I hope lol

There is a book called “A time a guy stole first base in order to steal second for a second time “. 
 

Situation was R1 and R3.