Can a player go back to an open base on a subsequent play?

[TLo]

Scenario:

No Outs. Runner on third base and no other runners on base. Next batter comes up and after being pitched to, hits the ball directly to the third base player. The batter gets to first base and stays on first. The third base player gets the runner (that was on third) in a run down between third and home. Short stop moves over and covers third base as the third base player moves towards the runner. Third base player throws ball to shortstop (who is covering third base) as the runner decided to go back to third. Shortstop that was covering third drops the ball and misses the tag. However, the runner touches third base but their momentum pulls them off third base. The short stop picks up the ball and goes to tag the runner but misses the tag. The runner sees second base is open and runs to second base. No defensive players were covering second base and the runner successfully makes it to second base.

Questions:
Once a player advances to a base on one play can they go backwards to an open base on a subsequent play?  
Is the runner, that went from third back to second base, safe?

Where I'm getting stuck is whether or not the runner can revert back to a previous base on a subsequent play.

But my gut tells me this would result in all players being safe with runners on first and second and still no outs. Next batter up and PLAY BALL!

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[SH0102]

So let me get this straight…

r3 is in a rundown with second base completely vacant and the batter chooses to stand on first ?

The ball was hit at F5 who runs at the runner but F6 is the one covering third for a throw? What exactly happened that let the runner get past f5 on his way back to third, requiring f5 to throw instead of tag?

This play requires batter to be oblivious, f4 to stand and do nothing, f5 to somehow overrun r3 so he has to throw back to third, f6 to drop the ball, r3 to overrun the base?

Would love to see a video of this play

[TLo]

18 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

So let me get this straight…

r3 is in a rundown with second base completely vacant and the batter chooses to stand on first ?

The ball was hit at F5 who runs at the runner but F6 is the one covering third for a throw? What exactly happened that let the runner get past f5 on his way back to third, requiring f5 to throw instead of tag?

This play requires batter to be oblivious, f4 to stand and do nothing, f5 to somehow overrun r3 so he has to throw back to third, f6 to drop the ball, r3 to overrun the base?

Would love to see a video of this play

Correct. The batter got to 1st and stayed at first.
F5 was playing a ways off 3rd base bag and after fielding the ball they ran toward the runner, F6 covered 3rd base. F5 was just running toward the runner (on contact the runner took a few more steps away from third) as they saw the runner was in 'no mans land' and wanted to prevent the run from scoring. As F5 was running towards the runner, the runner went back in the direction of 3rd. The runner got too far away for F5 to tag them and therefore F5 threw the ball to F6 (who was covering 3rd). F6 went to tag the runner but did not catch the ball clean and thus dropped the ball while attempting the tag. The runner gets back to 3rd safe, but their momentum takes them off the bag. Meanwhile F6 now picks up the ball and tries to tag the runner but the runner instead runs back to 2nd base, because it is open. 

I wished we would have had it on video. LOL 

[beerguy55]

I'm pretty sure OBR they made a modification a few years ago (I can't find the language) due to play that happened in a MLB game, where R2 thought he was put out, and then went to return to the first base dugout, and then realizing he wasn't out stopped at first base.

You may not return to a base prior to the one you occupy at time of pitch.  

 

What I'm not clear on is how it is administered...is it treated as abandonment, or does the play stay live until someone tags the runner who is standing on a base he can't occupy?

[Jimurray]

34 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm pretty sure OBR they made a modification a few years ago (I can't find the language) due to play that happened in a MLB game, where R2 thought he was put out, and then went to return to the first base dugout, and then realizing he wasn't out stopped at first base.

You may not return to a base prior to the one you occupy at time of pitch.  

 

What I'm not clear on is how it is administered...is it treated as abandonment, or does the play stay live until someone tags the runner who is standing on a base he can't occupy?

Since the play was ongoing and the pitcher had not assumed his position I think R3 could legally return to 2B if he retouched 3B on the way back or when his momentum carried him off in the correct area. I haven't seen any MLB revision. The geometry of his and the fielder's actions could cause him to be out for 3' or not retouching.

[beerguy55]

23 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Since the play was ongoing and the pitcher had not assumed his position I think R3 could legally return to 2B if he retouched 3B on the way back or when his momentum carried him off in the correct area. I haven't seen any MLB revision. The geometry of his and the fielder's actions could cause him to be out for 3' or not retouching.

In the OP the runner started the play at third base, he can't return to second.  (I'm guessing it's abandonment, but not sure - maybe it's just plain old running in reverse order to confuse the defense)

Found it, under 5.06(a)(1):

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. beerguy55, I think the play you referred to occurred in a game between the Cubs and Brewers that was played April 19, 2013. The baserunner was Jean Segura.

I don't believe there were any new rules written because of the play. The 2016 BRD makes no mention of a new rule enacted in response to the way the play was officiated on field. In fact, the OBR Comment you quoted was used in the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 136) and was exactly the same.

Close Call Sports wrote an analysis of the play but I haven't found it yet. Rich Marazzi posted an article about it at baseballrulesacademy.com.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

In the OP the runner started the play at third base, he can't return to second.  (I'm guessing it's abandonment, but not sure - maybe it's just plain old running in reverse order to confuse the defense)

Found it, under 5.06(a)(1):

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

Segura did it. I've always thought the runner couldn't go back while the pitcher was on the rubber but after the next pitch before engagement the runner could go back. They missed the tag of Segura off the base so that shouldn't figure in in our analysis.

 

[TLo]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

In the OP the runner started the play at third base, he can't return to second.  (I'm guessing it's abandonment, but not sure - maybe it's just plain old running in reverse order to confuse the defense)

Found it, under 5.06(a)(1):

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

Thank you. Very much appreciated.

[beerguy55]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Segura did it. I've always thought the runner couldn't go back while the pitcher was on the rubber but after the next pitch before engagement the runner could go back. They missed the tag of Segura off the base so that shouldn't figure in in our analysis.

My interpretation of the comment is it's a never/always thing - once you get a base and once the pitcher takes the rubber you can NEVER go back to a previous base....however, the Close Call Sports analysis wonders if this only applies while the pitcher is in said pitching position...if they disengage does the rule no longer apply?

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2013/04/solution-for-case-play-2013-03-segura.html

 

I had thought the OBR comment was added in response to the Segura play...I'm guessing now that they just missed/kicked it.  But who knows?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 301, p. 199):

FED:  If a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the ball is dead. Runners return TOP.

NCAA:  For running the bases in reverse order:  The runner is out and the ball is dead. Runners return TOP.

OBR:  Same as NCAA. 

Note:  (Jim) Evans points out that when the runner illegally returns, the umpire is to call time:  This eliminates the need for a fielder to tag the runner or base and precludes the opportunity of any other baserunner to advance. (JEA/7:69)

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 301, p. 199):

FED:  If a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the ball is dead. Runners return TOP.

NCAA:  For running the bases in reverse order:  The runner is out and the ball is dead. Runners return TOP.

OBR:  Same as NCAA. 

Note:  (Jim) Evans points out that when the runner illegally returns, the umpire is to call time:  This eliminates the need for a fielder to tag the runner or base and precludes the opportunity of any other baserunner to advance. (JEA/7:69)

That section in the BRD probably cites 5.09(b)(10):

"(10)  After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;"

and it would only apply in the OP IF you judged the purpose being as in the rule. Otherwise:

"Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base."

might apply if @beerguy55's interp of continued prohibition after a pitcher assumes the position. Some of us think that once the pitcher is back off the rubber the runner is again free to run in reverse. 

We are missing the MLB explanation of the Segura play and whether it was called properly.

In the meantime I judge a legal return in the OP absent video showing any 3' violation or failure to retouch which might be appealed. 

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

 They missed the tag of Segura off the base so that shouldn't figure in in our analysis.

 

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

In the meantime I judge a legal return in the OP absent video showing any 3' violation or failure to retouch which might be appealed. 

We also have potential coach assistance, at 0:44, off first base which prevented Segura from abandoning? (Assuming, abandonment can happen during a dead ball, where there's no opportunity to advance - ie. no baserunning award)

Well, he was caught stealing on his second attempt to steal second (?!?!?!) - so I think the universe fixed itself.

[MadMax]

55 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Assuming, abandonment can happen during a dead ball,

No it cannot. 

Neither can passing, with one exception – during a home run trot. Technically, a HR is a dead-ball event, but the bases must be touched in order, and no passing – amongst the active Runners – can occur. 

Otherwise, there are plenty of occurrences of Runners coming off the bases while the ball is dead. Look at any NCAA pitching change, for gosh sakes. They go back to, and – gasp!  – into the dugout while the pitching change is being made. 

Calling any of them Out for “Abandonment”? 

[BigBlue4u]

22 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

You may not return to a base prior to the one you occupy at time of pitch.  

 

beerguy55

Do you have a rule reference on this?

[BigBlue4u]

"Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base."

Found it myself.

[Jimurray]

41 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

"Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base."

Found it myself.

If you have perused the whole thread do you have an opinion on whether that rule allows runners to reverse any time the pitcher is off the rubber or it is a permanent probation after an advance and the pitcher takes the rubber?

[Senor Azul]

The following text appears in the MILBUM and the MLBUM:

Runners passing are not protected from being called out in accordance with Official Baseball Rules 5.09(b)(9) by time being called or other dead ball situation (i.e. ground-rule double, home run, etc.) if they are still in the act of running the bases. 

This interpretation first appeared in the MLBUM in 2017 in response to an unusual play in the MLB in 2016. We discussed the play in...

Ask the Umpire forum 

Thread--Dead ball ground rule double 

August 12, 2019

[BigBlue4u]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:43 PM, TLo said:

However, the runner touches third base but their momentum pulls them off third base. The short stop picks up the ball and goes to tag the runner but misses the tag. The runner sees second base is open and runs to second base. No defensive players were covering second base and the runner successfully makes it to second base.

I'm not going to let him do it.  However, since I'm not sure what exact rule covers this, I'm going with 8.01c. As an aside, sometimes rules get added or changed as the result of a protested play. This could be one of them.

[Senor Azul]

From the Jaksa/Roder manual:

Once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base.

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 136):

If a runner acquires title to a base and the pitcher assumes his pitching position on the rubber, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base. If he attempts to return, he will be called out for running the bases in reverse order.

[Jimurray]

34 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the Jaksa/Roder manual:

Once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base.

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 136):

If a runner acquires title to a base and the pitcher assumes his pitching position on the rubber, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base. If he attempts to return, he will be called out for running the bases in reverse order.

Wendelstedt melds two rules into one interp. J-R, one of whom might still be contacted needs to clarify how many times "once" is. In the meantime, absent MLB telling us the Segura play was kicked, aside from a missed tag and coach assist, it appears MLB umpires allowed Segura to return to his previously occupied base without the pitcher being in position and not confusing the defense and not making a travesty.

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I'm not going to let him do it.  However, since I'm not sure what exact rule covers this, I'm going with 8.01c. As an aside, sometimes rules get added or changed as the result of a protested play. This could be one of them.

2 rules cover this. Why would you MSU?  Just decide how to interpret or judge one was violated. 

[beerguy55]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:05 PM, MadMax said:

No it cannot. 

Neither can passing, with one exception – during a home run trot. Technically, a HR is a dead-ball event, but the bases must be touched in order, and no passing – amongst the active Runners – can occur. 

Otherwise, there are plenty of occurrences of Runners coming off the bases while the ball is dead. Look at any NCAA pitching change, for gosh sakes. They go back to, and – gasp!  – into the dugout while the pitching change is being made. 

Calling any of them Out for “Abandonment”? 

You can be called for abandonment on a home run trot as well, for the same reasons as passing....you still have to fulfill your obligations.  See Robin Ventura's walk off grand slam which ended up scored as a single.

 

[beerguy55]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:29 PM, BigBlue4u said:

"Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base."

Found it myself.

 

On 9/1/2023 at 6:09 PM, BigBlue4u said:

I'm not going to let him do it.  However, since I'm not sure what exact rule covers this, I'm going with 8.01c. As an aside, sometimes rules get added or changed as the result of a protested play. This could be one of them.

As @Jimurray says, the rules are there, but are subject to interpretation.

Specifically, does the rule comment mean that once the pitching position is obtained a runner may NEVER return to a previous base...or does it mean that once the pitcher disengages the runner is free to do so?

Without full direction, interpret as it makes sense to you, and do it consistently.

 

I'll even explain the reasoning for my interpretation of continued prohibition.  5.09(b)(10) references running in reverse order. That rule was created to respond to an incident in MLB where with R1/R3, R1 stole to draw a throw so R3 could score.  And when no throw came he stole first on the next pitch.  And then stole second again on the next pitch.   That rule was made to address that, so, IMO, the comment under 5.06(a)(1) is for some other reason (don't know if it came at the same time as or some point after the reverse order rule) - IMO it is meant to draw a line and set a runner's starting point, with no option to go back.   For any reason.  It's meant to, again IMO, for an example, prevent R3 from being chased all the way back to first base - or even home -  on some weird pickoff/rundown play (without qualifying for the conditions of 5.09(b)(10)). 

It also makes more sense from a scorekeeping perspective to never have a scenario where you have to explain how a runner who just hit a triple ended up on first base a couple of pitches later.

MLB has never, that I know of, explicitly stated whether or not the Segura play was mishandled.  So, it could be reasonable to conclude the umps made an error and it was handled quietly/internally...and alternatively, without any public statement that Segura was handled wrongly, it's perfectly reasonable to conclude it was ruled on the field correctly, meaning the rule only applies while the pitcher is on the rubber.  That doesn't make sense to me, but there are weirder rules in there for weirder reasons.

[Velho]

From JR 2022 pg 52

[Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when]
(6)
he runs the bases in reverse order. If a runner runs the bases in reverse order solely to confuse the defense or to travesty the game, the penalty is the same as in thrown ball interference, i.e., the ball is dead and the runner is out. [5.09b101][NFHS8-4-2n] A runner often returns to a base for a legitimate reason (caught fly ball, missed base, foul ball, ignorance) and such action should not be interpreted as reverse base running; if such runner reaches a previous base, he cannot be put out while on that base unless he is forced to leave it. Once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base. If he attempts to do so, he is declared out. [5.06a1-Comment]

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Velho said:

From JR 2022 pg 52

[Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when]
(6)
he runs the bases in reverse order. If a runner runs the bases in reverse order solely to confuse the defense or to travesty the game, the penalty is the same as in thrown ball interference, i.e., the ball is dead and the runner is out. [5.09b101][NFHS8-4-2n] A runner often returns to a base for a legitimate reason (caught fly ball, missed base, foul ball, ignorance) and such action should not be interpreted as reverse base running; if such runner reaches a previous base, he cannot be put out while on that base unless he is forced to leave it. Once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base. If he attempts to do so, he is declared out. [5.06a1-Comment]

Thank for the research but we still have a conflict. Segura was probably guilty of ignorance so he satisfies JR as not being reverse baserunning. But he returned to his previous base after being on 2B when the pitcher was in contact with the rubber. However the pitcher was no longer in contact with the rubber on this subsequent play where Segura ran from 2B to 1B. He was not called out either because the crew kicked it and MLB swept it under the rug or because the prohibition resets every time a pitcher takes the rubber.