What constitutes "First play from an infielder"

[ErichKeane]

So this came up in slow-pitch last night (player, not ump), but I only do OBR/Fed, so thats what I'm interested in.  OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G) has "If the throw is the first play by an infielder and the batter-runner has not reached first base when the throw was made, award all runners from time of pitch.".

I'd mistakenly thought it was 'first throw by an infielder' (given the other limitations), not 'first play by an infielder', and talked about it with the ump between innings (who was unaware of any 'first play by an infielder' rule, and said he thought it was always time of throw.  But again, slow-pitch/softball are different, so when we discussed it after the game (he came up to me on the way out, and we walked to cars together), he said he'd look it up/thought it was interesting.

However, the way our play went left me wondering how much action is 'first play' here.  In this case, R1, R2, grounder to F5.  F5 picks up the ball right next to 3B, steps slightly to the side and touches 3B, and continuing what is basically a 'single motion' (He picked up the ball while moving to step on 3B, basically got ball with R foot in air, dropped R foot on base, threw ball), throws to 1B and out of play.  R1 had made it to 2B at the point of the throw by the ump's judgement (R2 and R1 had not made it to their base).  Ump sent R1 home on this play, B/R to 2nd.

In this case there was at least a perceived motion to step on 3B (had there not been an R2, he probably would have just picked up the grounder without moving his foot to the base, and instead fielded it with his foot ~8 inches from the base), so I suspect the ump did the correct award here.  HOWEVER, what if the step on the base was 'incidental' in this case?  Same situation, except the F5 fields the ball while in contact with the base in a 'natural' position already, and throws it that way.  Is that sufficient to constitute a 'play'?

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, ErichKeane said:

So this came up in slow-pitch last night (player, not ump), but I only do OBR/Fed, so thats what I'm interested in.  OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G) has "If the throw is the first play by an infielder and the batter-runner has not reached first base when the throw was made, award all runners from time of pitch.".

I'd mistakenly thought it was 'first throw by an infielder' (given the other limitations), not 'first play by an infielder', and talked about it with the ump between innings (who was unaware of any 'first play by an infielder' rule, and said he thought it was always time of throw.  But again, slow-pitch/softball are different, so when we discussed it after the game (he came up to me on the way out, and we walked to cars together), he said he'd look it up/thought it was interesting.

However, the way our play went left me wondering how much action is 'first play' here.  In this case, R1, R2, grounder to F5.  F5 picks up the ball right next to 3B, steps slightly to the side and touches 3B, and continuing what is basically a 'single motion' (He picked up the ball while moving to step on 3B, basically got ball with R foot in air, dropped R foot on base, threw ball), throws to 1B and out of play.  R1 had made it to 2B at the point of the throw by the ump's judgement (R2 and R1 had not made it to their base).  Ump sent R1 home on this play, B/R to 2nd.

In this case there was at least a perceived motion to step on 3B (had there not been an R2, he probably would have just picked up the grounder without moving his foot to the base, and instead fielded it with his foot ~8 inches from the base), so I suspect the ump did the correct award here.  HOWEVER, what if the step on the base was 'incidental' in this case?  Same situation, except the F5 fields the ball while in contact with the base in a 'natural' position already, and throws it that way.  Is that sufficient to constitute a 'play'?

 

You should not be suspect. That was the correct award in OBR/FED and NCAA. The force at 3B was the first play, the throw was the second  play. MLBUM/MiLBUM/PBUC define "play or attempted play" as a legitimate attempt to retire a runner. Even if R2 was safe in the OP it would still be a play. But your proposed accidental force presents a wrinkle. I would have no problem calling it the first play if R2 was out but I don't know if we could call it a play if the accidental base touch occurred as part of the fielding/throw while R2 had already touched 3B.

[ErichKeane]

43 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You should not be suspect. That was the correct award in OBR/FED and NCAA. The force at 3B was the first play, the throw was the second  play. MLBUM/MiLBUM/PBUC define "play or attempted play" as a legitimate attempt to retire a runner. Even if R2 was safe in the OP it would still be a play. But your proposed accidental force presents a wrinkle. I would have no problem calling it the first play if R2 was out but I don't know if we could call it a play if the accidental base touch occurred as part of the fielding/throw while R2 had already touched 3B.

Ok, I think that sounds like an appropriate rubric for figuring it out here.  Thanks!

[noumpere]

MLBUM has a section on "play or attempted play"  It's been cited here before.  Sorry, I'm away from my references.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

MLBUM has a section on "play or attempted play"  It's been cited here before.  Sorry, I'm away from my references.

The MLBUM interp would not cover what @ErichKeane is asking. Is an accidental base touch the puts a runner out a play. Jimurray is of the opinion that it is a play but he can not decide if an accidental base touch that does not put a runner out is a play?

[The Man in Blue]

IMO, if you get an out, it's a play whether you did it on purpose or not.

[beerguy55]

On 6/2/2023 at 6:27 PM, Jimurray said:

The MLBUM interp would not cover what @ErichKeane is asking. Is an accidental base touch the puts a runner out a play. Jimurray is of the opinion that it is a play but he can not decide if an accidental base touch that does not put a runner out is a play?

If you determine there was no intent to touch the base, it can't be a play (unless you accidentally get the runner out).

This is kind of like the hockey "shot on goal" stat...if you flip the puck from your end, to just clear it from your end of the ice, and it happens to go to the net and is stopped by the goalie, it is NOT a shot...there was no intent to score, and there was no reasonable risk of the puck going into the net.  But, if it somehow goes into the net, it is a shot. (you can't have a goal without a shot - likewise you can't have an out without a play)

 

[Senor Azul]

Scorekeeping rule 9.09 states:

A putout is a statistic credited to a fielder whose action causes the out of a batter-runner or runner as set forth in this Rule 9.09.

There is no mention of intention--all one needs to do is cause the out to receive credit for a putout. I think that the unintentional out is definitely a play and in the OP it is the first play by an infielder. 

[maven]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:27 PM, Jimurray said:

The MLBUM interp would not cover what @ErichKeane is asking. Is an accidental base touch the puts a runner out a play. Jimurray is of the opinion that it is a play but he can not decide if an accidental base touch that does not put a runner out is a play?

A play in the relevant sense is a tag or tag attempt. If the fielder's action doesn't put out a runner, then it wasn't a tag by definition. If it was accidental, then it wasn't a tag attempt, again by definition. Ergo, not a play (proof by exhaustion).

QED

That said, I've got a tag, an out, and a TOT award on the OP's play.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.18, p. 57):

A play or attempted play shall be interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant...

[ErichKeane]

59 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.18, p. 57):

A play or attempted play shall be interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant...

The 'legitimate attempt' here I think DOES require that the touching of the base would have a 'good chance' at causing an out, but I think 'attempt' is a bit of a loaded word here that requires some level of 'intent', which is the question here. 

Consider; F3 is holding the runner on 1st.  F3 gets a line-drive right to him, which he catches, while still on the base because he was lazy leaving it on the hold (so now a double play!).  He then sees that R3 is off the base, and tries to throw over, and sails it out of bounds.  Does R2 score, or is he on 3B? 

 

[noumpere]

49 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

 

Consider; F3 is holding the runner on 1st.  F3 gets a line-drive right to him, which he catches, while still on the base because he was lazy leaving it on the hold (so now a double play!).  He then sees that R3 is off the base, and tries to throw over, and sails it out of bounds.  Does R2 score, or is he on 3B? 

 

R2 scores.  A throw (by other than the pitcher) out of play is always 2 bases.  The only issue is TOT or TOP, and that won't matter here.

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

R2 scores.  A throw (by other than the pitcher) out of play is always 2 bases.  The only issue is TOT or TOP, and that won't matter here.

Thats incorrect on '1st play by the fielder', isn't it?  As quoted in OP:
"OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G) has "If the throw is the first play by an infielder and the batter-runner has not reached first base when the throw was made, award all runners from time of pitch."."

The point of the question here is, "how do we define 'first play by the fielder' for the purposes of 5.06b (4)(G).

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

Thats incorrect on '1st play by the fielder', isn't it? 

 

No, it's not incorrect.

 

Yes, we award TOP on first play by an infielder.  But, R2 was already as second so he's going to score on a "two bases TOP" award.

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

No, it's not incorrect.

 

Yes, we award TOP on first play by an infielder.  But, R2 was already as second so he's going to score on a "two bases TOP" award.

Oh yeah, thats right, brain fart, sorry about that   Ok correct it to: F3 catches it on 1 bounce (getting B/R out because he's just 'there' on the base), but R1 was off on the pitch, and makes to to 2nd before F3 hauls it into the stands trying to make a play on the slower R2.  Does R1 score?

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

Oh yeah, thats right, brain fart, sorry about that   Ok correct it to: F3 catches it on 1 bounce (getting B/R out because he's just 'there' on the base), but R1 was off on the pitch, and makes to to 2nd before F3 hauls it into the stands trying to make a play on the slower R2.  Does R1 score?

I agree with the answers posted above to the OP

[beerguy55]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:55 AM, ErichKeane said:

The 'legitimate attempt' here I think DOES require that the touching of the base would have a 'good chance' at causing an out, but I think 'attempt' is a bit of a loaded word here that requires some level of 'intent', which is the question here. 

Consider; F3 is holding the runner on 1st.  F3 gets a line-drive right to him, which he catches, while still on the base because he was lazy leaving it on the hold (so now a double play!).  He then sees that R3 is off the base, and tries to throw over, and sails it out of bounds.  Does R2 score, or is he on 3B? 

 

Lot to unpack here.

You can have accidental force outs, you can NOT have accidental appeals.  Him simply standing on first while he catches the ball, while standing on first base, MIGHT NOT be a recognized appeal.

Regardless, even assuming it is, the first play is the catch for the out, is it not?  Because he retired the batter/runner, no?

In your updated example, getting B/R out on the accidental "not a force" would be the first play.   R1 scores based on TOT.

[Senor Azul]

Hate to tell you, Mr. beerguy55, but the act of fielding is not considered to be a play. If you insist I can provide citations saying just that e.g., the Wendelstedt manual tells us that.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. beerguy55, I apologize to you if my post seemed dismissive or disrespectful. What I posted about act of fielding and whether it is a play is correct. But upon reflection you raise a very good point about the appeal out.

The definition of what is an obvious appeal found in the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual says...

An appeal of a runner's failure to retouch is only obvious when...the runner has clearly failed to retouch, i.e., the runner is at or returning from a considerable distance from his TOP base when a fly ball is caught.

In the example play the runner is probably very close to the first base bag and scrambling back. I don't think a verbal appeal would be necessary because it is obvious the runner thinks he has to retouch. But I am not sure of this. Would the catch of the line drive be an obvious, unmistakable appeal or an inadvertent, accidental appeal?

I would hate to see the anger from the defense if I did not rule an out on the R1.