Jump to content

Returning to a base


Jessebleu

Recommended Posts

What is the correct OBR ruling for the following play?

Runners on first and third, two outs. On a base hit to left field the runner from third scores easily. Now the runner from first heads for third as the batter-runner misses first, goes about halfway to second, then starts back slowly toward first base. Now immediately after the runner(from first) is tagged out at third (for the third out), the ball is thrown to the first baseman who has been yelling for the ball all along because he saw the batter- runner miss first base. The batter- runner arrives back on first base a “split second” before the first baseman catches the ball (on the bag) and appeals to the umpire that he missed the base. Ruling?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the BR returns and touches 1B before the appeal (F3 tagging him or the base), then his missed base is corrected, the run scores, and the inning is over.

If the ball gets to 1B first: this is known as the advantageous apparent 4th out.

The appeal should be granted, and the out on the BR (apparently the 4th out) replaces the out on R1 at 3B. 

The out is advantageous (and the appeal ruled on) because it nullifies R3's run: the BR was retired before touching 1B. By rule, no run can score.

Same ruling in all codes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, maven said:

If the BR returns and touches 1B before the appeal (F3 tagging him or the base), then his missed base is corrected, the run scores, and the inning is over.

If the ball gets to 1B first: this is known as the advantageous apparent 4th out.

The appeal should be granted, and the out on the BR (apparently the 4th out) replaces the out on R1 at 3B. 

The out is advantageous (and the appeal ruled on) because it nullifies R3's run: the BR was retired before touching 1B. By rule, no run can score.

Same ruling in all codes.

The 2017 MLBUM has ruling where no runner can return to touch a missed base after the third out. Wouldn't that apply in the OP? It's a fourth out whether the runner got there first or not unless my 2011 BRD is currently correct which did allow a runner to return to touch after a third out. I don't know if some thing changed since 2011.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing has changed. The MLBUM ruling is intact. The runner is out whether or not he gets back to first before or after the ball arrives there. No runner can return to a base after there are three outs. Final result, three out, no run scores!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.47, p. 74):

Play 12:  May a runner return to touch a missed base after the third out?

Ruling 12:  No. Example:  Runner on second base, two out. Batter hits a base hit but is thrown out attempting to reach second base. Runner originally on second crossed the plate before the third out but missed the plate. After the third out at second base, the runner who missed the plate then returns and touches the plate. Defense, before leaving the infield, then appeals at home. Ruling:  Initially the run scores (runner reached home plate before the third out). However, the defense’s appeal is sustained and the runner is called out because no run may score after the third out is made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would also suggest "Same ruling in all codes" is incorrect ... NFHS allows a verbal appeal.  If you are accepting of the fielder calling for the ball for that purpose (something I think we have debated on this forum before), that seems to be a successful verbal appeal regardless of whether the batter-runner or the ball got there first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This discussion has nothing to do with the type of appeal that’s allowed. Rather it deals with whether or not a runner can return to a base after the inning  has ended. I would think all codes would have to be consistent in that regard, otherwise scenarios could be conjured up that would be absolutely insane!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

Nothing has changed. The MLBUM ruling is intact. The runner is out whether or not he gets back to first before or after the ball arrives there. No runner can return to a base after there are three outs. Final result, three out, no run scores!

I agree that the MLBUM ruling is intact but something did change between 2001 and 2012. Carl, in the 2011 BRD, quotes Fitzpatrick as allowing a runner to retouch after a third out based on a 2001 email. PBUC play 12 is not in a 2004 PBUC. PBUC play 12 is in a 2012 PBUC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the 2016 BRD (section 512, p. 328):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  No runner is allowed to return to correct a baserunning infraction after the third out has been made. He may physically return. However, if he is appealed, he should be called out. No run would score. Until the defense appeals, the run stands. (email to cc, 7/13/12)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, maven said:

Did not know that. That's harsh. FED does not have that, AFAIK.

There is some confusion in my 2011 BRD when the runner could return after the third out in all codes according to Carl but his example allows an out in FED, as opposed to OBR/NCAA, when appealed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

It sounds like federation has the same result as OBR and NCAA. In other  words, a runner physically returning to a missed base after the third out is meaningless if properly appealed by the defense.

It sounds like we don't know who said what. In 2011 the BRD thought that all three codes agreed that a runner could retouch his missed base after a third out but in an example play they allowed the run to score in OBR and NCAA but allowed an appeal in FED. We know what OBR currently rules. We don't know if NCAA, abiding usually by OBR interps, but sometimes unaware of a change to an OBR interp, currently rules the same way and I don't have a clue as to FED. In the meantime I'm ruling as per OBR currently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of what Fed does or does not state in writing, hopefully they realize that allowing runners to advance or return AFTER there are 3 outs is inane. (THE INNING IS OVER ! ) THE ONLY THING THAT CAN OCCUR IS A PROPER APPEAL FOR A BASERUNNING INFRACTION OR BOO. Glad we have OBR AND THE MLBUM!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TOMUIC despite your disdain for Fed (yes, we get it, YOUR brand of baseball is the ONLY brand of baseball 🙄), the type of appeal is VERY relevant to that question since the verbal appeal (again -- IF you allow that as a verbal appeal) IS the third out as it happens before the tag of the runner.

I'll ask a very basic question.  I'm not arguing with the ruling or the rule, just asking a very base premise level question in any code: Why is it OK to allow the defense to continue to play after the third out, but not the offense?  (I know this is not the only example of allowing one side to do something but not the other.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I agree that the MLBUM ruling is intact but something did change between 2001 and 2012. Carl, in the 2011 BRD, quotes Fitzpatrick as allowing a runner to retouch after a third out based on a 2001 email. PBUC play 12 is not in a 2004 PBUC. PBUC play 12 is in a 2012 PBUC.

I just wanted to make sure nobody missed that part because EVERY amateur umpire from LL to PONY to Dixie to FED should have access to other people's e-mails and be expected to memorize them as gospel.

If the rule book is broken, FIX THE DAMN RULE BOOK.  

[/end usual TMIB rant]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The defense is not being allowed to keep playing after the third out is called, they are being allowed to cite a baserunning infraction that occurred BEFORE the inning  came to an end. The bottom line is any rule book that allows offensive baserunning after there are three outs, needs to be fixed, and based on their past history, Federation doesn’t appear to have the personnel in place to accomplish that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I just wanted to make sure nobody missed that part because EVERY amateur umpire from LL to PONY to Dixie to FED should have access to other people's e-mails and be expected to memorize them as gospel.

If the rule book is broken, FIX THE DAMN RULE BOOK.  

[/end usual TMIB rant]

Just to correct the record that BRD reference was a phone call. I mistakenly wrote email.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

The defense is not being allowed to keep playing after the third out is called, they are being allowed to cite a baserunning infraction that occurred BEFORE the inning  came to an end. The bottom line is any rule book that allows offensive baserunning after there are three outs, needs to be fixed, and based on their past history, Federation doesn’t appear to have the personnel in place to accomplish that.

No rule book addresses returning to touch after a third out. MLB and NCAA agreed prior to some point in time that a runner could retouch. While it seems that the BRD had FED agreeing with MLB and NCAA the example play Carl ends the 2011 chapter with has FED allowing an appeal and negating a run while OBR and NCAA allow the runner to retouch and score. Until OBR adds something in the rulebook we only have PBUC/MLBUM interps for OBR, a confusing BRD play where it seems FED has always not allowed a retouch after a third out and nothing for NCAA who always defer to OBR if their rule does not cover something but sometimes NCAA has not been made aware of a change to OBR thinking and still uses an outdated OBR interp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once again, regardless of the type of appeal that’s allowed under a particular rule set (i.e. physical and/or verbal, live or dead ball) a runner who has not corrected his base running infraction before there are three outs (ending the inning) will be called out if a proper appeal is made, notwithstanding the fact that he might be already back on the base by the time the actual appeal is made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr. Jim Murray, with regard to the OBR not stating anything regarding this topic, they appear to have a history of being  hesitant to make changes in the actual rulebook, and that’s why I think they employ the MLBUM to cover things that are not in OBR or need clarification.

Respectfully, I think if we just apply some common sense, it becomes fairly clear that we cannot have runners running bases when the inning is already over. The type of scenarios that could  result from such thinking would be crazy (lol)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

"The 2017 MLBUM has ruling where no runner can return to touch a missed base after the third out."

 

JiMurray...what page are you referring to in the 2017 MLBUM?

P23, Ruling 14 in Interp 35. Appeal Plays. It first showed up, to my knowledge in the 2012 PBUC as play 12 in Section 6.4. Appeal Plays, also cited by @Senor Azul earlier in this thread from his 2021 MiLBUM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/4/2022 at 2:17 PM, TOMUIC said:

Mr. Jim Murray, with regard to the OBR not stating anything regarding this topic, they appear to have a history of being  hesitant to make changes in the actual rulebook, and that’s why I think they employ the MLBUM to cover things that are not in OBR or need clarification.

IMHO, that's because a playing rule change (a change to the "Official Rules of Baseball") require player involvement pursuant to the Collective Bargaining Agreement.  Its just a lot easier to do an "interpretation" without changing/editing the rule book.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...