Legal pick off move to 3rd with fake throw, HS

[Eric GGG]

If a high school pitcher  makes a legal move towards 3rd in an apparent pickoff attempt [ RHP, after coming set. steps directly towards 3rd] but but does not throw and instead fakes the throw, this is not a balk, correct? And after that fake throw to 3rd he has disengaged the rubber, he can look  fake, or throw to first [or 2nd], or do whatever he pleases.  Correct?

[noumpere]

21 minutes ago, Eric GGG said:

If a high school pitcher 

Yes, if the HS pitcher is playing in a game played under HS rules (and assuming the state doesn't have a different rule).

[Eric GGG]

Thx!  I did receive confirmation from the umpiring crew that the UMP blew the call last night when he called a balk on my son in that situation

[ousafe]

@Eric GGG this is a scenario where the word "protest" is your team's friend. If your coach is sure there has been a missapplication of a rule (after hearing the umpires explanation of his ruling), they simply saying "okay, I protest" will start a process in motion whereby the coach or the umpire will learn, and the call can be made right.

[ErichKeane]

8 minutes ago, ousafe said:

@Eric GGG this is a scenario where the word "protest" is your team's friend. If your coach is sure there has been a missapplication of a rule (after hearing the umpires explanation of his ruling), they simply saying "okay, I protest" will start a process in motion whereby the coach or the umpire will learn, and the call can be made right.

The protest rules in my local organization (Junior Baseball Organization) are: There are none!  When we umps mess up the call, everyone is stuck with it!  It is particularly frightening when I am not 100% positive between the rulesets that I ump..

My OTHER organization (a weekend tourney) charges $100 deposit for a protest!  Turns out, VERY few coaches are that sure about the rules to put their money where their mouth is.

[The Man in Blue]

This is just my personal opinion ...

... I like that your org has no protest procedure.  Maybe the culture where I umpire has been different than the areas other people are in, but it amazes me the number of times "just protest" comes up as a reply on here.  I cringe when I think about the day that this becomes a common refrain from coaches, "Well then, I protest!"

I like that they don't have protests because we umpires are human beings.  Yes, there are times when we not only get calls wrong, but misremember, misapply, or misappropriate rules.  While we should strive to get it right and use all of the resources available to us at the moment, sometimes the lesson we need to learn is we have to move on.  Life isn't fair, s#!+ happens, and this is just a child's game.

It also amuses me when people lament "This tournament charges $100 to lodge a protest!"  Why do places do that?  Simple: too many coaches do not understand what a protest is and what it is for.  If they did not charge that fee, it would take days to play a game because of coaches who think "fair" equates to "goes my way."  Side note: every tournament I have seen that charges a fee for a protest also states the fee is returned if the protest is upheld.  It's funny how people who are "100% certain (right?)" aren't so quick to throw a challenge flag just because it turned from red to green.  

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

This is just my personal opinion ...

... I like that your org has no protest procedure.  Maybe the culture where I umpire has been different than the areas other people are in, but it amazes me the number of times "just protest" comes up as a reply on here.  I cringe when I think about the day that this becomes a common refrain from coaches, "Well then, I protest!"

I like that they don't have protests because we umpires are human beings.  Yes, there are times when we not only get calls wrong, but misremember, misapply, or misappropriate rules.  While we should strive to get it right and use all of the resources available to us at the moment, sometimes the lesson we need to learn is we have to move on.  Life isn't fair, s#!+ happens, and this is just a child's game.

It also amuses me when people lament "This tournament charges $100 to lodge a protest!"  Why do places do that?  Simple: too many coaches do not understand what a protest is and what it is for.  If they did not charge that fee, it would take days to play a game because of coaches who think "fair" equates to "goes my way."  Side note: every tournament I have seen that charges a fee for a protest also states the fee is returned if the protest is upheld.  It's funny how people who are "100% certain (right?)" aren't so quick to throw a challenge flag just because it turned from red to green.  

I agree completely.  For me, I'm umping mostly 14U or lower (though doing HS rec and 35+ this weekend!), so the calls/judgements, unless super bad, end up not mattering enough to make kids come back out and 'finish' a game.  I suspect this is the reason for 'no protests': nothing we do is high enough impact to deal with getting a field another day/etc.  In the end, everyone gets Ice cream/orange slices at the end of the day.

In the Tourney, the $100 DOES stop the coaches who aren't SURE (or at least sure enough for how much a 14U single-weekend tourney matters) about their call on the ruling.  It DOES have the "if you're right, you get your money back" but I don't think folks are willing to risk it that much.

Only one I've had so far that has been 'protest worthy' in that tourney was miscalling a balk (I thought the dropped-ball was "over the rubber", not "engaged on the rubber", and my partner agreed), but the offended team ended up winning by a lot anyway, so it was not a big deal anyway.  Interestingly, same day I had a different team that REALLY wanted a balk to the point where they had "3 former minor league pitchers and the whole crowd on their side" who was sure, but opted not to protest. 

THAT case was RH pitcher from the stretch lifts leg, and as he does this, R2 takes off for 3. Pitcher steps toward 3B to catch the runner (in the end, the runner made it back to 2B, so it was a nothing-burger in the end.  OHC REALLY was sure it was a balk for: 1- Throwing to an unoccupied base, and 2- throwing to a base after a high leg-kick.  He even came up to me after the game to tell me to look up the rule, because he was sure, but still didn't spend the $100!

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Eric GGG said:

Thx!  I did receive confirmation from the umpiring crew that the UMP blew the call last night when he called a balk on my son in that situation

Players are learning, coaches are learning, parents are learning, umpires are learning.

[JonnyCat]

55 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

This is just my personal opinion ...

... I like that your org has no protest procedure.  Maybe the culture where I umpire has been different than the areas other people are in, but it amazes me the number of times "just protest" comes up as a reply on here.  I cringe when I think about the day that this becomes a common refrain from coaches, "Well then, I protest!"

The reason I like, and encourage protests, is to teach someone something. Protests are a valuable tool, not just to overturn or confirm a call, but a protest is going to educate someone, either the coach or the umpire. I want it done mostly to teach the umpire.

How many times is it that we hear on this site an umpire making the wrong rule interpretation? Answer: Often. And what is the overall response? Answer: Did the coach protest?

If the coach never protests, then the umpire will continue to make the wrong rule interpretation. Not only that, if he has a partner, then that person is going to perpetuate the same rule misapplication. By protesting, you're going to teach one or more umpires the appropriate rule and it's application. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned. And maybe, just maybe, the umpire might be inclined to delve into the rule-book if they're shown to be wrong.

That's the importance of protests. Not about getting a call overturned in a meaningless game. It's about education.

[maven]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Players are learning, coaches are learning, parents are learning, umpires are learning.

You could make some money printing this on signs for posting on youth ball fields.

[ErichKeane]

5 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

The reason I like, and encourage protests, is to teach someone something. Protests are a valuable tool, not just to overturn or confirm a call, but a protest is going to educate someone, either the coach or the umpire. I want it done mostly to teach the umpire.

How many times is it that we hear on this site an umpire making the wrong rule interpretation? Answer: Often. And what is the overall response? Answer: Did the coach protest?

If the coach never protests, then the umpire will continue to make the wrong rule interpretation. Not only that, if he has a partner, then that person is going to perpetuate the same rule misapplication. By protesting, you're going to teach one or more umpires the appropriate rule and it's application. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned. And maybe, just maybe, the umpire might be inclined to delve into the rule-book if they're shown to be wrong.

That's the importance of protests. Not about getting a call overturned in a meaningless game. It's about education.

Perhaps for some umpires?  But every time I've ever been challenged on a call, I spend that evening reading the rule books to make sure I got it right, and that was how I was taught to do it. I'd like to think that is something that most umpires do to improve their game, and those that don't likely wouldn't learn from a protest anyway.

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

I'd like to think that is something that most umpires do to improve their game,

I'd like to think that Santa Claus is real and that (insert super model name) does fantasize about me.

[JonnyCat]

16 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Perhaps for some umpires?  But every time I've ever been challenged on a call, I spend that evening reading the rule books to make sure I got it right, and that was how I was taught to do it. I'd like to think that is something that most umpires do to improve their game, and those that don't likely wouldn't learn from a protest anyway.

You and me both. Even still, if it's brought to someone's attention, hopefully they would at least acknowledge it. Sometimes I know it's a pipe dream. But if nothing is said, then nothing will even be done about it.

With a protest, at least you have a chance.

[JonnyCat]

9 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I'd like to think that Santa Claus is real and that (insert super model name) does fantasize about me.

She does!

[The Man in Blue]

Coach: "I want to protest!"

Me: "So do I coach.  You're the home team on the wrong side of an 18-0 A-double-2-whooping.  We are not starting another inning with two minutes left on the clock just so we can play another 35 minutes wasting pitching innings, tormenting these kids in this heat, and allowing the visiting team to score another 8 runs ALL just to have your batters go 3-up, 3-down.  I protest your coaching strategies and motivations." 

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

The reason I like, and encourage protests, is to teach someone something. Protests are a valuable tool, not just to overturn or confirm a call, but a protest is going to educate someone, either the coach or the umpire. I want it done mostly to teach the umpire.

How many times is it that we hear on this site an umpire making the wrong rule interpretation? Answer: Often. And what is the overall response? Answer: Did the coach protest?

If the coach never protests, then the umpire will continue to make the wrong rule interpretation. Not only that, if he has a partner, then that person is going to perpetuate the same rule misapplication. By protesting, you're going to teach one or more umpires the appropriate rule and it's application. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned. And maybe, just maybe, the umpire might be inclined to delve into the rule-book if they're shown to be wrong.

That's the importance of protests. Not about getting a call overturned in a meaningless game. It's about education.

While I can appreciate this take and I cannot say you are wrong ...

 

😁