5.05 (a)(3) Question

[Guest Guest Jaye]

(3) If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3).

I don't understand the underlined portion of 5.05(a)(3). What does it mean "Cannot be caught" for the purposes of the two rules?

The first rule is about base on balls, hit by pitch and interference. The second is about  a third strike not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out. I don't see why it matters if the ball is caught by the catcher in either scenario.

 

Thanks,

 

Jaye

[noumpere]

If the ball bounces, BR swings and misses, it's not a D3k -- no matter how F2 gloves the ball.

[Rich Ives]

7 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If the ball bounces, BR swings and misses, it's not a D3k -- no matter how F2 gloves the ball.

It CANNOT be caught.  It IS a D3K.

[Lou B]

The term "dropped third strike" is misleading, it's an "un-caught" third strike.

Be prepared to hear things from managers like "he caught the ball" or "he didn't drop the ball".

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If the ball bounces, BR swings and misses, it's not a D3k -- no matter how F2 gloves the ball.

 

34 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It CANNOT be caught.  It IS a D3K.

 

26 minutes ago, Lou B said:

The term "dropped third strike" is misleading, it's an "un-caught" third strike.

Be prepared to hear things from managers like "he caught the ball" or "he didn't drop the ball".

This is not the question.

 

OP is asking why the "cannot be caught" statement references two rules ,5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3), that are entirely irrelevant to whether or not the third strike is caught.

 

5.05(b)(1, 2 and 4) all reference plays where there is no third strike at all

5.09(a)(3) features first base occupied less than two out, so it doesn't matter if it's caught or not

 

5.05(b)(3), in context to the statement, would only matter if it was CI on an uncaught, bounced but cleanly gloved, third strike and the batter and all runners somehow magically advanced.

 

Shouldn't it be reference 5.09(a)(2) instead?

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Anyway what happens if the a battle swings on a ball that touches the ground and bounces with 2 strikes? Is he out with 3 strikes no matter what?

[Senor Azul]

 I don't see why it matters if the ball is caught by the catcher in either scenario.

To our guest Jaye, your question is not as simple to answer as you might think. The rules of the game of baseball have evolved a great deal since the first set of written rules in 1845. Today those 1845 rules are referred to as the Knickerbocker Rules and part of these original rules was rule 11—

11TH. Three balls being struck at and missed and the last one caught, is a hand-out; if not caught is considered fair, and the striker bound to run.

At that time a batter could be retired if a fielder caught a fly ball in the air or on its first bounce. The same thing was true of a batter on a strike three where a catcher could make a put out by catching the pitch in the air or on its first bounce. Lots of things have changed since then—for example, the definition of what is considered to be caught and what is not caught.

Today that rule looks like this--

5.09 Making an Out

(a) Retiring the Batter

A batter is out when:

(2) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher;

Rule 5.09(a)(2) Comment: “Legally caught” means in the catcher’s glove before the ball touches the ground…

There is a lot of history involved here so how much detail would you like to know?

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

Anyway what happens if the a battle swings on a ball that touches the ground and bounces with 2 strikes? Is he out with 3 strikes no matter what?

It's treated like any uncaught third strike.  Doesn't matter if it bounces before the plate or after the plate.  If it's not caught it's not caught.

If first base is unoccupied he may try to advance

If there are two outs he may try to advance

If not, he's out.

If the ball hits him after the swing and miss, he's out.

But...If after the bounce he hits the ball sharp and direct to the catcher's mitt and it's caught, it's a foul tip, he's out.

[beerguy55]

15 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Rule 5.09(a)(2) Comment: “Legally caught” means in the catcher’s glove before the ball touches the ground…

There is a lot of history involved here so how much detail would you like to know?

That's fine...but 5.05(a)(3) doesn't reference 5.09(a)(2)....it references 5.09(a)(3) and 5.05(b), to which there is no apparent relationship to the third strike scenarios.  There's a missing link there somewhere...or a typo...or some editing mistake (I suspect)

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If the ball bounces, BR swings and misses, IT IS  a D3k (and NOT a caught pitch) -- no matter how F2 gloves the ball.

(edit to correct glaring typo - thanks Coach Rich)

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

That's fine...but 5.05(a)(3) doesn't reference 5.09(a)(2)....it references 5.09(a)(3) and 5.05(b), to which there is no apparent relationship to the third strike scenarios.  There's a missing link there somewhere...or a typo...or some editing mistake (I suspect)

Probably just editing errors. The previous format had one irrelevant reference and one relevant:

"A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter. Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05 (c) and 6.09 (b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight."