Run scores before ball is thrown to get 3rd out first base

[Guest Eric]

2 outs in the game with bases loaded.  Batter hits a ball to a dead area in front of short stop.  Runner from 3rd crosses home before short stop picks up the ball and throws it to first.  But still beats the batter (a slow runner) to first and the final out is made.  

Does that run count???

I was told that, because the ball had not been thrown to first yet (and the runner crossed the base), that the run counts - even though a force out was made at first.  

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, Guest Eric said:

2 outs in the game with bases loaded.  Batter hits a ball to a dead area in front of short stop.  Runner from 3rd crosses home before short stop picks up the ball and throws it to first.  But still beats the batter (a slow runner) to first and the final out is made.  

Does that run count???

I was told that, because the ball had not been thrown to first yet (and the runner crossed the base), that the run counts - even though a force out was made at first.  

You were told incorrectly (the terminology on "force out at first" not withstanding).  The timing doesn't matter (that's why it's not a time play) -- only the fact that the third out was made by the BR before reaching first.

[Guest Eric]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You were told incorrectly (the terminology on "force out at first" not withstanding).  The timing doesn't matter (that's why it's not a time play) -- only the fact that the third out was made by the BR before reaching first.

Thank you.  I thought so.  
Also, I didn't clarify that this is 10u fastpitch softball.  

They tried to argue that it's an ASA rule.

[Mister B]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

"force out at first"

Is that like nails on a chalkboard for anyone other than me?

[SH0102]

4 hours ago, Guest Eric said:

Thank you.  I thought so.  
Also, I didn't clarify that this is 10u fastpitch softball.  

They tried to argue that it's an ASA rule.

There are a couple of resident softball eficianados on this site, so hopefully one of them will be along soon, but I have never seen a baseball or softball game where a batter being thrown out at first for the third out resulted in a run. 

While some leagues do adopt local rules, I also can not imagine a 10U level association adopting any sort of complicated provision allowing this, talk about a nightmare for the umpire (I am assuming he/she is solo at that age)

[flyingron]

The USA 2020 Rulebook (which I'm pretty sure applies to ASA fastpitch) says

Section 5 - Scoring of Runs

B.  No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1 A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred. Therefore, if the batter-runner or trail runner is put out prior to an appeal, the out on the appeal will not be considered a force out.

The boldened part is what applies

[beerguy55]

On 10/11/2021 at 1:23 PM, Mister B said:

Is that like nails on a chalkboard for anyone other than me?

Nope...even the mlb.com website calls it a force.   It is, for all intents and purposes, a "force" even if it doesn't meet the According to Hoyle definition of a "forced runner".  Except for it's name, and that semantical distinction, is the batter/runner going to first different from any of the forced runners he creates?   He can be put out by tagging him or the base...and if he makes the third out no runs score.   And can he go anywhere else?  He can't go back and bat again.

The biggest/only difference is there is nothing that can "unforce" the batter/runner.   He's forced to advance to first by the on-deck batter becoming a batter.

All it does it creates confusion for newbies, and allows us in the know to go "haha, I'm smarter than you."    It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.   Even elitist, to a degree.

[HokieUmp]

On 10/12/2021 at 12:04 PM, beerguy55 said:

All it does it creates confusion for newbies, and allows us in the know to go "haha, I'm smarter than you."    It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.   Even elitist, to a degree.

Look, man.  Players get the money, the women, the fame, the drugs.  Throw us a frickin' bone, here.

[Vegas_Ump]

As for the batter, I think the discussion is that on the third out the batter is retired before he successfully reaches first base.  Why is this so busy?  Well, what about an uncaught third strike where R3 dashes home?  The catcher retrieves the ball and tags the batter;  he's out #3, so no runs can score.  How about a 3-foot lane violation?  (Of course, that's defined under Interference, wherein all runners must return.....)

See?  There are many cases where the batter-runner can be retired before he successfully attains first base, and none have the essence of a "force play".  Thus the Third Out rule needs to have some completeness.

Your buddy is confusing this one with a timing play where the third out is obtained on a non-force play before/after a runner reaches the plate.  And take a look at appeals.  There are some interesting consequences there too.  

Mike

Las Vegas

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Look, man.  Players get the money, the women, the fame, the drugs.  Throw us a frickin' bone, here.

First  you get the money, then you get the power....then you get the women.

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

See?  There are many cases where the batter-runner can be retired before he successfully attains first base, and none have the essence of a "force play".  Thus the Third Out rule needs to have some completeness

If you consider the batter a forced runner then the rest is moot...he's a forced runner who got out before reaching his required base.   Whether RLI, or U3K, he's a "runner"...and he must reach first base....he's got no choice in the matter if he wants to be safe. 

Where the rule needs the specific batter/runner mention is for a fly ball...because a b/r typically reaches first before a fly ball is caught.

A forced runner can also be out by INT, going off the baseline, missed base appeal, etc.  Doesn't matter because it's covered as a forced runner put out before reaching his next base.

[flyingron]

Who's forcing the batter/runner?    The definition is "runner loses his right ot occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

 

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, flyingron said:

Who's forcing the batter/runner?    The definition is "runner loses his right ot occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

 

Can the batter/runner stay in the box?   Can he stand between first and home when the next batter comes to the plate?   Is he not required to advance to first?

If it makes you feel better, the batter/runner is forced by the ODB becoming a batter.   

The point isn't whether it meets the technical rulebook definition of "force" (nor has that ever been argued) the point is the status of the batter/runner is exactly the same as any forced runner - is there any mechanism where a batter/runner is treated differently than any forced runner, or the game is managed/scored differently?    The only difference is, the other runner(s) can be "unforced", a batter/runner has no choice but to advance to first...nothing changes that requirement.

Differentiating them has no real practical purpose and only serves to confuse those who want to learn the game.

We shouldn't be correcting those who mix them up, we should be correcting the definition...or at least acknowledging that the batter-runner is implied in the definition  (ie. the runner loses the right to occupy the base as a result of the batter/runner who is forced/required/mandated/compelled to advance to first).

The batter is specifically mentioned in the "runs scored/not scored" scenario because there are other ways the batter can get out that don't include a play at first, namely K and caught batted ball. (Hell, that rule says before the batter "touches" first base, and the b/r can touch first before a lot of fly balls are caught - but we don't get hung up on the literal presentation there, do we?)