Question about run scoring before third out is made

[Guest guest]

Inspired by the Baez play from a couple of days ago, I got to thinking about situations where the rule about a run scoring before the third out if the out was not a force could be abused. Lets say the bases were loaded with 2 outs, and the count was full so the runners were going on the pitch, and the batter hits a routine grounder to short. By the time the shortstop fields the ball, all three runners would have advanced to the next base, but as long as the shortstop throws the batter out at first the run will not count. But what if the runner who began the play on first manages to get himself called out before the batter is thrown out, say by interfering with the shortstop fielding the ball or by simply running out of the baseline past second? In this case would the run count?

[The Man in Blue]

If the runner had not safely reached the next base, an interference or running out of the base path call would be treated as a force out.  The key is whether the runner had reached the base they were being forced to, not the method.

[noumpere]

41 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

If the runner had not safely reached the next base, an interference or running out of the base path call would be treated as a force out.  The key is whether the runner had reached the base they were being forced to, not the method.

True -- but not relevant to the play -- in which R1 (after having touched second base ) interferes with F6 or leaves the baseline.

 

Still, the run does not count.  If it's INT then runners return to the base occupied at the time of pitch, since the batter- runner had not yet reached first.  Just leaving the base path is not cause for an out.

[The Man in Blue]

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

True -- but not relevant to the play -- in which R1 (after having touched second base ) interferes with F6 or leaves the baseline.

 

Still, the run does not count.  If it's INT then runners return to the base occupied at the time of pitch, since the batter- runner had not yet reached first.  Just leaving the base path is not cause for an out.

I thought it was my job to try to be contrary ... 😁

I started with "If the runner had not safely reached the next base ..."  😉

 

[Mister B]

There's always the 4th out if it's available and you need it. 

[aaluck]

On 5/29/2021 at 6:11 PM, noumpere said:

Still, the run does not count.  If it's INT then runners return to the base occupied at the time of pitch, since the batter- runner had not yet reached first.  Just leaving the base path is not cause for an out.

In the MBL OP yes. In Fed rules, no.  TOI not TOP.

[Tborze]

20 hours ago, aaluck said:

In the MBL OP yes. In Fed rules, no.  TOI not TOP.

You sure?

Hint: First play ...

Disregard this!  I don’t know why I was answering for a throw OOP. 
 

Sorry aaluck!

[aaluck]

3 minutes ago, Tborze said:

You sure?

Yes.

Hint: 8-2-9....

“ART. 9 . . . Each runner shall touch his base after the ball becomes dead. All awarded bases must be touched in their proper order. The runner returns to the base he had reached or passed when the ball became dead. In the event of interference, a runner returns to the base he had legally reached at the time of the interference. If the interference does not cause the batter to be out and any other runner cannot return to the base last legally occupied at the time of the interference, he is advanced to the next base.” Excerpt From: NFHS. “2018 NFHS Baseball Rules Book.” 

[Recontra]

One way of looking at this that might help some (but perhaps confuse as many) is that technically, a "force out" is an out on a runner who was "forced" to advance because of the batter becoming a runner. The batter is not "forced" to run to 1st. He's just out if:

"(10) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

Other runners are out if:  "(6) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

The distinction between a "force out" and an out on the batter runner is also memorialized in the Scoring Rule:

"EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

The Rules don't say that no run scores if any runner including the batter runner is "forced out." Some might think this is a distinction without meaning, but it helps me remember lots of rules, not just the scoring rule, but others that provide that all runners advance only if forced--umpire interference, for example, or runner interference with a batted ball. The batter-runner is not forced to first, he just needs to get there before he or the bag is tagged.

 

 

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Tborze said:

You sure?

Hint: First play ...

FED is always TOI, except FPSR (because of the safety factor)

[beerguy55]

20 hours ago, Recontra said:

The batter-runner is not forced to first, he just needs to get there before he or the bag is tagged.

Yeah, and R1 needs to get to second before he or the bag is tagged.

Technically speaking, R1 isn't forced to go to second...he's only forced to leave first.

The B/R not being forced is a misnomer and a semantical distinction that has no practical application in the game of baseball.  It IS a distinction without meaning, and there is zero reason this should help anyone remember any other rules, or anything at all.  If anything, it likely confuses many newbie umpires who have probably been calling the play at first a force all their lives, only to learn "wtf?"  It only serves to confuse/annoy those who know how to speak English, but haven't got under the covers of baseball rulebook terminology.  And it gives us in the know a chance to condescendingly educate said neophytes and otherwise unwashed masses with "actually, the batter is not forced".

Hell - even mlb.com references the play at first as a force in its Glossary - https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

The rule writers focused on the runners when they defined a force, and then someone said "yeah, but what about the batter?" and they said "meh".   The two out, does the run score rule, would cover the batter/runner in the "forced" section regardless of the definition...and they needed the statement about the batter getting out anyway, to cover off fly balls and INT  and K's and the such, so it's not like they really needed to explicitly land the batter/runner under the "force" definition...but practically speaking, the technical distinction is pointless.   It's an academic discussion.

Where else can the batter go?  He can't even return to home plate or he'd be out automagically. He is, for all intents and purposes, forced/required/obliged to go to first base.   He can't just stand around on the baseline between first and home and let the next batter come to the plate.   He is forced to advance by the ODB becoming a batter.  That the rule writers couldn't figure out how (or didn't really need) to eloquently put the batter/runner into the same definition for the forced runners is moot.  The runners are forced because the batter became a runner...but if he isn't forced to go to first, why would his status as a runner force R1 to do anything at all?