Dead Ball Assist

[MT73]

Runner hits home run.

‘While he is trotting around 3rd he misses the base.

‘Coach taps him and tells him to touch the base.

‘Even though it’s a dead ball is he out?

[Senor Azul]

OBR rule 6.01(a)(8)

6.01 Interference, Obstruction, and Catcher Collisions

(a) Batter or Runner Interference

(8) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

2019 FED rule 3-2 ART. 2 . . . No coach shall physically assist a runner during playing action.

Please—no more rants!

[MT73]

5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. MT73, you asked this same question in April 2019 in the same forum. I gave you the very same answer which you thanked me for. Then our resident experts started to claim that the BRD was wrong so I was forced to post more in defense of that interpretation—here is one of those posts talking about an analysis by Gil Imber.

Let me direct you to an article written by Gil Imber of Close Call Sports. It is titled Case Play 2017-5--Dead Ball Missed Base Appeal and it is dated May 4, 2017. The play in question actually took place in an NCAA softball game but the last half of the analysis is about what if it happened in a Major League game. Here are a couple of excerpts from his analysis of the OBR ruling.

On an out-of-the-park (dead ball) home run, the runner may be called out for: failing to touch a base (appeal play), passing a runner (see Rule 7.01(g)(3) Approved Ruling), abandonment, but not interference.

But the ball is dead! The Definition of Terms states, "Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play." There is no play or potential play to be made during a dead ball period.

Furthermore, Rule 5.06(c)(2) states that, while the ball is dead, no player may be put out, no bases run, and no runs scored except as the result of acts that occurred while the ball was live (and the rule specifically lists "interference" as one of those acts which might have "occurred while the ball was alive"). Thus, while the ball is dead, the batter-runner cannot be put out due to the coach assist interference. Coach assistance interference is a live ball infraction.

So, I hope you, Mr. MT73, will read this analysis and feel more confidence in the ruling from the BRD. The allegation that Carl Childress is wrong about this is simply that—an allegation—an unsubstantiated claim.

You have a better memory than I.

And many thanks.

‘This does rankle my sense of fairness ( denying the defense a chance for an appeal) but that’s baseball. 

[MadMax]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I agree it does not need to be detailed because it should not be any different than a coach assisting during a live ball.

Ah, but there is one difference, a fundamental difference. And this difference is common to each and every scenario I keep trotting out, as maddening and frustrating as they may seem. 

The difference is – the ball is Dead. In each of the scenarios I rattle off, with all the meandering and convoluted things that happen, in each of them... at the outset... the ball is or becomes Dead. So all the rest of the fluff-&-stuff I detail doesn’t matter! 

I’m intentionally being confusing in the scenarios to make a point – that because the ball is Dead, nothing else after that (really) matters. So many umpires get caught up in all the details, when really, it’s essentially a game of “Simon says... “. Is the ball Live or Dead? If Live, then we need to pay attention to the details... if Dead, well... nothing* else that follows matters. 
 

 

————

*- for the most part. Of course, Passing can happen during a HR, which technically is a batted ball going over the fence into DBT. But that is a rare exception.

[Velho]

21 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Passing can happen during a HR

The rules say no interference while the ball is dead. No problem. Not challenging the application.

So, let's debate the rule...  First base coach grappling the BR about to pass the statue of R1 admiring a 600-ft 2 out grand slam to tie the game (imminent event, only choice is to grab him or lose the game). That's not giving the offense an advantage?

 

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

OBR rule 6.01(a)(8)

6.01 Interference, Obstruction, and Catcher Collisions

(a) Batter or Runner Interference

(8) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;

2019 FED rule 3-2 ART. 2 . . . No coach shall physically assist a runner during playing action.

Please—no more rants!

Thank you ... I knew it was there and I was just looking past it.

[The Man in Blue]

41 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Ah, but there is one difference, a fundamental difference. And this difference is common to each and every scenario I keep trotting out, as maddening and frustrating as they may seem. 

The difference is – the ball is Dead. In each of the scenarios I rattle off, with all the meandering and convoluted things that happen, in each of them... at the outset... the ball is or becomes Dead. So all the rest of the fluff-&-stuff I detail doesn’t matter! 

I’m intentionally being confusing in the scenarios to make a point – that because the ball is Dead, nothing else after that (really) matters. So many umpires get caught up in all the details, when really, it’s essentially a game of “Simon says... “. Is the ball Live or Dead? If Live, then we need to pay attention to the details... if Dead, well... nothing* else that follows matters. 
 

 

————

*- for the most part. Of course, Passing can happen during a HR, which technically is a batted ball going over the fence into DBT. But that is a rare exception.

 

Yes ... and no ... 

With no distinction in the rule between live and dead, it applies to both scenarios.  I agree with you that a dead ball does negate many things simply by the virtue that they simply cannot happen (not just an exclusion by rule).

Where we get into the grey is with things that can happen but may or may not be explicitly governed by rule.  As the ill-placed section quoted before points out (full quote which was not provided before):

While the ball is dead, no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs scored except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field.)

Then it was postulated :

Thus, while the ball is dead, the batter-runner cannot be put out due to the coach assist interference. Coach assistance interference is a live ball infraction.

However ... if an appeal of a missed base -- an action that occurred during a dead ball as a result of live action -- can happen, it is reasonable that coach interference can also happen (and would not have happened but for the result of live action).  Coach interference is NOT an action against the defense (as most types of interference are) which implies "live" action is needed, but an action to advantage the offense.

Thanks to @Senor Azul we can see that Fed DOES have the live ball provision for coach interference.  However, OBR does not.

I can understand the argument that it is intended (as all almost all other provisions do necessitate live play to happen), however it is not stated and is possible for this instance to happen.

[beerguy55]

14 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

While the ball is dead, no player may be put out

Unless a following runner passes a preceding runner...

[MT73]

Not to beat a dead horse, but while a runner cannot be put out during a dead ball situation he can be declared out by an umpire in some circumstances.

Passing a runner and abandonment are some examples. 
I have also read that a coach assisting a runner back to a base is the 3rd.

Since OBR has no distinction between live and dead ball coaches assist I’ll have to mull this one over.

‘Thanks to all.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Unless a following runner passes a preceding runner...

I agree.  5.09(b) Retiring a Runner has no qualifying distinctions about occurrences during dead balls and live balls.  The fact that some situations cannot happen during a dead ball does not mean ALL sections are relegated to live ball play only.

[SH0102]

I am willing to throw myself under the bus here...I still have a hard time accepting this.  I saw and defended Azul's case play, I get it, but the defense has the right to appeal (and in FED, can do a dead ball appeal) a missed base.  The runner has the right to advance all 4 bases without being put out, but in missing a base, he provides the defense the opportunity to appeal it and achieve an out.

A coach reminding a kid to go back and re-touch, no issue.  But grabbing him and forcefully turning him back, I do, and I am likely calling it.  That isn't coaching, that is taking over, and the coach has literally, physically, deprived the defense of their right to appeal what otherwise the runner would have provided.

The rulebook does not say on a home run, the batter-runner, with the physical assistance of his coach, has the right to advance all 4 bases without being put out, it says the batter-runner does.  As soon as the coach PHYSICALLY interjects himself, I've got INT