Stretch Then Windup

[Guest Old Coach]

Nevermind the logic/value of it, but is there a rule on whether or not a pitcher can bring his hands together and come set, and then begin delivery with the  front foot stepping back toward first base and then up and toward home on the pitch ?

Sort of a stretch then windup delivery except that the after coming set the front foot isn't in a legal windup spot ?

[Radwaste50]

If I am picturing this correctly, it would look very weird and he is stepping more towards first than toward home without throwing to first.  This would be a step balk violation 6.2.4a

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, Guest Old Coach said:

Nevermind the logic/value of it, but is there a rule on whether or not a pitcher can bring his hands together and come set, and then begin delivery with the  front foot stepping back toward first base and then up and toward home on the pitch ?

Sort of a stretch then windup delivery except that the after coming set the front foot isn't in a legal windup spot ?

You can't do that in NFHS or NCAA. They have restrictions on the windup foot position. LL allows a windup from the set position. OBR allows a sideways pitcher to windup as you describe but he must declare when he is going to windup from that position. They have no restriction on the free foot position in the windup. But I haven't seen a sideways MLB pitcher stretch while putting his hands together. 

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.3 Situation H:  With R1 on first, F1 is in set position in a wide stance. He lifts his nonpivot foot to shorten his stance and then returns to his wide stance (a) during his stretch and before his stop or (b) after his stop. RULING:  This is legal in (a), but is a balk in (b). If nonpivot foot is lifted after the stop, he must immediately pitch or step directly toward a base and throw to that base.

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Radwaste50 said:

If I am picturing this correctly, it would look very weird and he is stepping more towards first than toward home without throwing to first.  This would be a step balk violation 6.2.4a

If they have declared a windup with runners on it's legal in OBR. Clip is for a different issue but check the pitcher out:

[ousafe]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

... LL allows a windup from the set position. ...

@Jimurray, do you have a ruling, interp or reference for this?  I'm looking at LL rule 8.01, and I'm not getting to your conclusion. 

8.01(b): ...From such Set Position the pitcher may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base, or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with the pivot foot.

Are you saying that "deliver the ball to the batter" can include a step back and then a step toward home?

[Aging_Arbiter]

I believe its in the R.I.M that since the bases are closed, there is no deception/illegal movement   or something to that nature.  I could be mistooken on the reference.

[Guest Old Coach]

Jim...yes, that video depicts what I'm asking, with a pitcher coming set and then doing what you see.   Also, in the video there are no runners on.   Does that matter ?

 

And what does "declaring a windup" mean ?   I've never heard of that usage.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 Little League Rules Instruction Manual

2018 Little League rule 8.01(b)

EXAMPLE: In Major Little League (and below), the pitcher may windup from the Set Position.

[Jimurray]

28 minutes ago, Guest Old Coach said:

Jim...yes, that video depicts what I'm asking, with a pitcher coming set and then doing what you see.   Also, in the video there are no runners on.   Does that matter ?

 

And what does "declaring a windup" mean ?   I've never heard of that usage.

With an R3 that pitcher might use his windup. 

“Rule 5.07(a) to 5.07(c)
 Rule 5.07(a)(2) Comment: With no runners on base, the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop when using the Set Position. If, however, in the umpire’s judgment, a pitcher delivers the ball in a deliberate effort to catch the batter off guard, this delivery shall be deemed a quick pitch, for which the penalty is a ball. See Rule 6.02(a)(5) Comment.
With a runner or runners on base, a pitcher will be presumed to be pitching from the Set Position if he stands with his pivot foot in contact with and parallel to the pitcher’s plate, and his other foot in front of the pitcher’s plate, unless he notifies the umpire that he will be pitching from the Windup Position under such circumstances prior to the beginning of an at-bat. A pitcher will be permitted to notify the umpire that he is pitching from the Windup Position within an at-bat only in the event of (i) a substitution by the offensive team; or (ii) immedi- ately upon the advancement of one or more runners (i.e., after one or more base runners advance but before the delivery of the next pitch).”

[Richvee]

23 minutes ago, Guest Old Coach said:

Jim...yes, that video depicts what I'm asking, with a pitcher coming set and then doing what you see.   Also, in the video there are no runners on.   Does that matter ?

 

And what does "declaring a windup" mean ?   I've never heard of that usage.

What this pitcher is doing in the video is called the "hybrid". It is a combination of the set and wind up. It is illegal in high and college. Both high school and college require the pitcher's pivot foot to be in contact with the rubber, and the free foot to be touching, or in line with the front edge of the rubber. Yes, it's an illegal pitch with no runners on. 

This hybrid windup is allowed under OBR, however, with runners on base, if the pitcher wants to use this windup, (usually with a runner on 3rd), he must "declare" to the umpires he is winding up, otherwise, it looks like a set position, and, from the set position that step to the side would be considered a balk. 

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, Richvee said:

What this pitcher is doing in the video is called the "hybrid". It is a combination of the set and wind up. It is illegal in high and college. Both high school and college require the pitcher's pivot foot to be in contact with the rubber, and the free foot to be touching, or in line with the front edge of the rubber. Yes, it's an illegal pitch with no runners on. 

This hybrid windup is allowed under OBR, however, with runners on base, if the pitcher wants to use this windup, (usually with a runner on 3rd), he must "declare" to the umpires he is winding up, otherwise, it looks like a set position, and, from the set position that step to the side would be considered a balk. 

In OBR many hybrid pitchers are not completely sideways with a parallel pivot foot. They do not have to declare as there is no confusion as to their windup or set position. 

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In OBR many hybrid pitchers are not completely sideways with a parallel pivot foot. They do not have to declare as there is no confusion as to their windup or set position. 

It's pretty much the David Price/Marcus Stroman rule 

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, ousafe said:

@Jimurray, do you have a ruling, interp or reference for this?  I'm looking at LL rule 8.01, and I'm not getting to your conclusion. 

8.01(b): ...From such Set Position the pitcher may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base, or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with the pivot foot.

Are you saying that "deliver the ball to the batter" can include a step back and then a step toward home?

If you read LL 8.01(a) you will note the same lack of restriction on the free foot position as in OBR. So while they permit winding from what looks like a set foot position in Majors and below by RIM interp they unwittingly allow it in all divisions due to the OBR wording. And I see no problem allowing it. I’ve yet to see a sideways pitcher that you couldn’t tell was going to windup or pitch from the set and that includes David Price. 

[Jimurray]

On 5/1/2019 at 10:16 PM, Jimurray said:

If you read LL 8.01(a) you will note the same lack of restriction on the free foot position as in OBR. So while they permit winding from what looks like a set foot position in Majors and below by RIM interp they unwittingly allow it in all divisions due to the OBR wording. And I see no problem allowing it. I’ve yet to see a sideways pitcher that you couldn’t tell was going to windup or pitch from the set and that includes David Price. 

It appears we haven't been reading the RIM thoroughly. @ousafe has brought my attention to another RIM requirement for the pitcher in the windup to have his shoulders parallel to the 1B-3B line.