Dropped third strike and errors

[Dan Ruehle]

I have had this situation come up several times and use GameChanger to score games and can never score it correctly. GameChanger seems to think that there can never be a situation where an error can be charged on a dropped third strike when the batter-runner reaches safely (https://gamechanger.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212071606-Scoring-a-Dropped-3rd-Strike-). Here is the part I am questioning:

Quote

*According to baseball rules, there cannot be both a dropped third strike and throwing/fielding error if the runner only advances to first base. The runner advanced to first because of the dropped third strike. You are not able to also apply an error to that play. If the runner advances to second because of an error, you will be able to record that in the app. 

I would argue that there is a situation. The pitch is either bounced (wild pitch) and the batter swings or the catcher drops the third strike (passed ball), but the catcher manages to field the ball cleanly afterwards. At this point, I think there could be two possible errors. The catcher could make an errant throw, allowing the batter-runner to be safe. I can see how this situation could be considered just a passed ball or wild pitch, it is still the battery making a mistake. However, what if the throw is perfect, but the first baseman muffs the catch. Should this not be an error on the first baseman? Especially when the pitch was a curveball and the battery is expecting the ball to hit the ground and ready for it? Seems wrong for the battery to be charged with a mistake when the first baseman truly allowed the batter-runner to reach safely. It also seems wrong to charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when the catcher was able to field cleanly, but then proceeded to throw the ball away.

Thoughts? Any actual rules apply to this?

[Senor Azul]

OBR rule 9.12(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:

9.12(d)(5) any fielder when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored.

9.12(e) The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.

 

 

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Dan Ruehle said:

 

Thoughts? Any actual rules apply to this?

I dont mean to demean you question here -- but you rquestion would be better directed to game changer than to a site where umpires help each other (and coaches, players, fans) understand the rules*, mechanics and how the game is called.

 

* -- here, it's mostly playing rules.. Most of us don't read the scoring rules or care a whole lot about them.  In fact one instruction often given to newer umpires, (in the days before everything was on line) was to "rip Rule 10 out of the book"

[Rich Ives]

On 7/29/2018 at 2:37 AM, Senor Azul said:

OBR rule 9.12(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:

9.12(d)(5) any fielder when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored.

9.12(e) The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.

 

 

But if the catcher retrieves it in time to throw the B-R out and air-mails it to 1B - that's an error.  Same if F3 drops a throw that would otherwise have resulted in an out.  In that case you do NOT score a WP/PB, but score the error.

[Richvee]

41 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

But if the catcher retrieves it in time to throw the B-R out and air-mails it to 1B - that's an error.  Same if F3 drops a throw that would otherwise have resulted in an out.  In that case you do NOT score a WP/PB, but score the error.

That's not what the rule says. It's pretty clear.

[Senor Azul]

Obviously, Mr. Rich Ives, you did not follow the link provided by the OP. The whole point of his post was that he disagreed with the app created by GameChanger. The OP had just as obviously gone to the GameChanger website to see if there was, indeed, a mistake in the app concerning uncaught third strikes. Then, he came here and asked if we know of any rules that support what had been programmed into the app—“Any actual rules apply to this?” And, again, that's what I did--I posted the OBR rules that support the programming in the app.

If you had followed the link provided in the OP you would have read the following text--

Written by David Kennedy

When a batter reaches 2 strikes, and if first base is open or there are 2 outs, a dropped 3rd strike option is added to the bottom of the pitch menu within the Scorekeeper app.

To score a dropped third strike follow these steps:

1) Scroll down, tap Drop 3rd Strike
2) Select Swinging or Looking
3) Select Safe on First (WP), Safe on First (PB) or Batter Out at First*

Note that the option is only available in situations where it is possible (e.g. Two strike count).

*According to baseball rules, there cannot be both a dropped third strike and throwing/fielding error if the runner only advances to first base. The runner advanced to first because of the dropped third strike. You are not able to also apply an error to that play. If the runner advances to second because of an error, you will be able to record that in the app. 

[Senor Azul]

I know the following text doesn’t prove or disprove whether the GameChanger app has a flaw in it concerning uncaught third strikes. But consider this. The app was launched in 2009 and has been used for over 10 million amateur level games (from PR Newswire website dated 4/26/17)—

GameChanger, the leading digital scorekeeping app for amateur baseball and softball teams, today announced it has officially reached 10 million games scored since launching in 2009. For context, there are 2,430 baseball games in one MLB regular season, so it would take more than 4,115 Major League Baseball seasons to reach the 10 million games scored at the amateur level…

Little League Baseball and Softball is proud to congratulate GameChanger on reaching this momentous milestone," said Liz DiLullo Brown, Little League Vice President of Marketing and Communications. "As the scorekeeping partner of the Little League World Series events, GameChanger provides the opportunity for coaches, parents, and fans to follow the action, track pitch counts, and teach players all year long…

 

So, Mr. Rich Ives, since you think the app has a flaw in it I suggest you contact GameChanger which was recently acquired by DICK’S Sporting Goods. I am sure they all would be grateful, also Little League, to have the mistake pointed out to them so they could fix it.

 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

I know the following text doesn’t prove or disprove whether the GameChanger app has a flaw in it concerning uncaught third strikes. But consider this. The app was launched in 2009 and has been used for over 10 million amateur level games (from PR Newswire website dated 4/26/17)—

GameChanger, the leading digital scorekeeping app for amateur baseball and softball teams, today announced it has officially reached 10 million games scored since launching in 2009. For context, there are 2,430 baseball games in one MLB regular season, so it would take more than 4,115 Major League Baseball seasons to reach the 10 million games scored at the amateur level…

Little League Baseball and Softball is proud to congratulate GameChanger on reaching this momentous milestone," said Liz DiLullo Brown, Little League Vice President of Marketing and Communications. "As the scorekeeping partner of the Little League World Series events, GameChanger provides the opportunity for coaches, parents, and fans to follow the action, track pitch counts, and teach players all year long…

 

So, Mr. Rich Ives, since you think the app has a flaw in it I suggest you contact GameChanger which was recently acquired by DICK’S Sporting Goods. I am sure they all would be grateful, also Little League, to have the mistake pointed out to them so they could fix it.

 

 

 

So you think the app is right.  Why?

The rule says you don't score an error IFF you score a WP or PB.

But if you throw out the runner you do not score a WP or PB.

SO if you should have thrown the runner out and failed due to a bad throw or a muff,  that's an error.

[Dan Ruehle]

I really appreciate the responses, well, all except the one about me not checking with GameChanger first, which I did and was directed to the help article mentioned, but does not point to any specific rule. Silly me, I don't just take a company's help article as a baseball rule.

From the official MLB rules at http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/8/0/268272080/2018_Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf which does include the rule provided above, but also includes these rules.

Quote

9.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has
assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the
time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases
of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more
bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such
fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a
runner on third base before two are out in order that the
runner on third shall not score after the catch;
(3) when such fielder catches a thrown ball or a ground ball
in time to put out the batter-runner and fails to tag first
base or the batter-runner;
(4) when such fielder catches a thrown ball or a ground ball
in time to put out any runner on a force play and fails to
tag the base or the runner;
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely,
when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have
put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made
attempting to prevent a stolen base;

Quote

9.13 Wild Pitches and Passed Balls
A wild pitch is defined in the Definition of Terms (Wild Pitch). A
passed ball is a statistic charged against a catcher whose action has
caused a runner or runners to advance, as set forth in this Rule 9.13.
(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch
when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that
the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort,
thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official
scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally
delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching
the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting
a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is
a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official
scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.
(b) The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball
when the catcher fails to hold or to control a legally pitched ball
that should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort,
Rule 9.12(f) to 9.13(b)
thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the
third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first
base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.

So, I would argue that if the third strike is thrown in the dirt, but the catcher handles it cleanly, or the catcher drops the ball but controls it quickly, neither situation of rule 9.13 is satisfied to charge a passed ball or wild pitch. Therefore, rule 9.12(e) does not apply and rule 9.12(a)(1,3,4 or 5) should apply and an error charged to either the catcher if the throw was at fault or the first baseman if the catch was not made or the base or runner was not tagged.

Oh, and I completely understand the desire to "rip Rule 10 out of the book" as it doesn't affect the actual result of the game. I am just a fan of baseball and was curious when I wasn't allowed to score plays as I thought they should be.

[beerguy55]

 

19 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

So you think the app is right.  Why?

The rule says you don't score an error IFF you score a WP or PB.

But if you throw out the runner you do not score a WP or PB.

SO if you should have thrown the runner out and failed due to a bad throw or a muff,  that's an error.

The app is right  because this is how it is scored in practice.   A D3K can only be a WP or a PB if the runner reaches first safely.

If you can find any instance of a MLB game scoring both an uncaught third strike AND reaching first base (and first base only) on an error I'd be beyond shocked (eg. throw is wide and pulls F3 off the bag).  Any errors would be related to the batter going beyond first base, or another base runner advancing.

7 hours ago, Dan Ruehle said:

 

So, I would argue that if the third strike is thrown in the dirt, but the catcher handles it cleanly, or the catcher drops the ball but controls it quickly, neither situation of rule 9.13 is satisfied to charge a passed ball or wild pitch. Therefore, rule 9.12(e) does not apply and rule 9.12(a)(1,3,4 or 5) should apply and an error charged to either the catcher if the throw was at fault or the first baseman if the catch was not made or the base or runner was not tagged.

 

It is also treated the same if a base runner advances on a pitch in the dirt - if the runner advances, or attempts to advance, AFTER a ball goes in the dirt, it can only be a WP or PB if they reach safely - no error (unless it allows them to go beyond that base), no SB...and if they get thrown out is is NOT a "caught stealing".   They can't be caught stealing in a situation where they wouldn't get a stolen base if they reached safely.

In that regard, a batter-runner advancing on a D3k is treated the same as a runner advancing on a pitch in the dirt, so the scoring keeps the two scenarios consistent - as they both involve a runner advancing as a result of a pitch that eludes the catcher.

By rule, and in principle, we are saying that it was the ball in the dirt that permitted the batter-runner to reach first (as per the language in the rule), or, for example, R2 to reach third base - and that any subsequent opinion to what "would have" happened if the throw had been made or caught cleanly is irrelevant.

The passed ball or wild pitch created the situation...you only get to convert it to an out...you don't get to convert it to an error.

 

 

[Richvee]

On 07/31/2018 at 11:22 AM, Dan Ruehle said:

I really appreciate the responses, well, all except the one about me not checking with GameChanger first, which I did and was directed to the help article mentioned, but does not point to any specific rule. Silly me, I don't just take a company's help article as a baseball rule.

From the official MLB rules at http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/8/0/268272080/2018_Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf which does include the rule provided above, but also includes these rules.

So, I would argue that if the third strike is thrown in the dirt, but the catcher handles it cleanly, or the catcher drops the ball but controls it quickly, neither situation of rule 9.13 is satisfied to charge a passed ball or wild pitch. Therefore, rule 9.12(e) does not apply and rule 9.12(a)(1,3,4 or 5) should apply and an error charged to either the catcher if the throw was at fault or the first baseman if the catch was not made or the base or runner was not tagged.

Oh, and I completely understand the desire to "rip Rule 10 out of the book" as it doesn't affect the actual result of the game. I am just a fan of baseball and was curious when I wasn't allowed to score plays as I thought they should be.

You're searching through rules, inferring things from definitions, to piece together an argument for your case. However, there's a clear rule for this which means there's no need to interpret and piece together other rules to come to the conclusion that 9.12(e) spells out for us in plain,simple terms.

I understand what you're saying, but @beerguy55 's analogy of how this is scored when baserunners advance is spot on. Not charging an error on D3K is consistent with  how scoring works with other runners advancing on BP's/WP's.

[Dan Ruehle]

I am really not searching for something to piece together an argument for my case. Rule 9.12(e) says

Quote

9.12(e) The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.

So, lets take this situation. Pitcher delivers pitch on 0-2 count in the dirt, batter swings, catcher fields cleanly. Catcher throws ball to first baseman who muffs the catch, batter-runner is safe on first. According to rule 9.13(a):

Quote

9.13(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch
when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that
the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort,
thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official
scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally
delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching
the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting
a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is
a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official
scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.

the pitcher should not be charged with a wild pitch. There was not "a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher". The "and" there is important. Both conditions must be satisfied, and in this situation, they are not. Therefore, the last sentence of 9.13(a) should not be applied because the third strike was not a wild pitch. Also, 9.12(e) should not be applied as there was technically not a wild pitch.

I'm not saying that in practice, all dropped 3rd strikes aren't scored as a WP or PB. But, applying logic to these rules does not spell out how it should be handled in plain, simple terms. Plain and simple terms would be something like:

Quote

9.12(g) *Not an actual rule* If a batter-runner reaches first base safely on a dropped third strike, and no other runners were thrown out as a result of the play, the scorer must score a wild pitch or passed ball.

I'm sure someone could write that better, and I know it seems petty to pick around at the rules about this. But, rules that are this vague will only be clarified if questioned. And I think there is wiggle room here and the rule is not clear.

[Richvee]

Once a batter swings at a pitch in the dirt it cannot  "be fielded cleanly" as you say. It is, by rule, an uncaught 3rd strike.

The rules also state that when a batter reaches 1B on an uncaught 3rd strike it's a WP or a PB and no error can be charged.

It's that simple.

[roughie]

Longtime lurker, love all the topics - umpire, coach or scoring related.

I think this shows that MLB will indeed score an error on an obvious bad throw/dropped ball at first on an U3K.

 

1

-2-

6,(2-2)

MIL

Carlos Gomez

AJ Ramos

-17%

54%

Strikeout Swinging, E2; Lucroy to 3B; Gomez to 2B

 

 

 

[roughie]

Sorry my bad.  Error was for runner going to second.

[Dan Ruehle]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:34 PM, Richvee said:

Once a batter swings at a pitch in the dirt it cannot  "be fielded cleanly" as you say. It is, by rule, an uncaught 3rd strike.

The rules also state that when a batter reaches 1B on an uncaught 3rd strike it's a WP or a PB and no error can be charged.

It's that simple.

I'm sorry, not trying to be a pain or ignorant. I don't see a rule that states "when a batter reaches 1B on an uncaught 3rd strike it's a WP or a PB and no error can be charged" simply. The rules do say that if the runner reaches first as a result of a WP or PB, no error should be charged. They also set forth the parameters around what should be called a WP or PB. What I am saying is that if those parameters are not met, the rules are unclear.

[roughie]

I actually was correct the first time. Looking at the boxscores if there is a WP and an error they acknowledge it and if only an error or WP they show that as well.

In the game I provided a link above they did not acknowledge a WP just an error.  The box score shows Ramos with one WP but that was the batter before.

Compare this box score line:

MIL

Carlos Gomez

AJ Ramos

-17%

54%

Strikeout Swinging, E2; Lucroy to 3B; Gomez to 2B

With this line:

TEX

Rougned Odor

Joba Chamberlain

-2%

94%

Strikeout Swinging, Wild Pitch; Odor to 3B/Adv on E2 (throw to 1B

[Dan Ruehle]

So, the scoring of that game can be found at https://www.mlb.com/gameday/brewers-vs-marlins/2014/05/24/381270#game_state=final,game_tab=play-by-play,game=381270. Top of the 8th. Here is the scoring of the play:

No mention of a WP or PB. So, either the scorer messed up and no one caught it, or it is possible to have a dropped 3rd strike result in an error. Doesn't get get more simple than that. Thanks roughie!

[Richvee]

Earlier in the thread it was explained additional bases advanced can be charged as an error. Notice your play by play stated quite clearly Carlos Gomez advances TO SECOND BASE on Satly's error. Not 1B.

We'll just have to disagree here. To me, the scoring rule is quite simple and straight forward. Evidently the folks at Gamechanger also agree with me.

[Dan Ruehle]

Since there is no WP or PB scored on that play and Carlos Gomez struck out, the scoring saying he advanced to 2nd indicates a 3 base error, 2 bases for Carlos Gomez and one for Jonathan Lucroy. If he stopped at first, would have just said Carlos Gomez advanced to 1st.

Bottom line, here is a real world MLB scenario where a player reaches base safely on a dropped 3rd strike and no WP or PB is scored. If that doesn't prove that it is possible, not sure what else would.

[Senor Azul]

Here’s the other example (same type of play but scored differently) that Mr. roughie mentioned--

Detroit Tigers @ Texas Rangers 6/25/14 (play-by-play from retrosheet.org)--

RANGERS 8TH: KELLY STAYED IN GAME (PLAYING 3B); CHAMBERLAIN REPLACED COKE (PITCHING); Choice grounded out (shortstop to first); Chirinos flied to center; Odor struck out but advanced to third on a wild pitch; Martin lined to right; 0 R, 0 H, 1 E,

1 LOB.  Tigers 8, Rangers 5.

According to the box score found at retrosheet.org, the Tigers pitcher Joba Chamberlain was charged with a wild pitch in the 8th inning and the Tigers catcher Bryan Holaday was charged with an error on the same play that allowed Rangers batter Rougned Odor to reach third base on the strikeout.

[beerguy55]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:53 PM, Dan Ruehle said:

So, the scoring of that game can be found at https://www.mlb.com/gameday/brewers-vs-marlins/2014/05/24/381270#game_state=final,game_tab=play-by-play,game=381270. Top of the 8th. Here is the scoring of the play:

No mention of a WP or PB. So, either the scorer messed up and no one caught it, or it is possible to have a dropped 3rd strike result in an error. Doesn't get get more simple than that. Thanks roughie!

It's an error in scoring, missed in the confusion of the runner also advancing on the same error to second base.   This play SHOULD have had a WP/PB AND and an error that allowed the runners to advance one more base.

My challenge to you is to find a MLB game where a batter strikes out, and reaches first base, and first base only, on an error by F2 or F3 (eg. throw pulls F3 of bag, or F3 drops a clean throw).   This would also have to entail either no other runners on base...or the other runners on base only advance the one base they would have on the WP/PB, so that no error would be scored for any other reason.   

As explained earlier, the Gamechanger method is the standard practice, and it also makes the D3K situation consistent with a runner advancing on a pitch in the dirt.   If a runner is stealing, an error can be charged on the fielder if he drops a clean throw from F2 that would have otherwise caught the runner (actually recorded as caught stealing, E to fielder).  However, if the runner only advances AFTER the pitch is in the dirt, the play can only be scored an out (NOT caught stealing), a passed ball or a wild pitch...even if the fielder drops a clean throw that otherwise would have caught the runner, no error can be charged unless the runner advances an additional base as a result of the mistake.

Basically, what the rule book is saying is that the pitch in the dirt is what created the situation, whether the pitcher's or catcher's fault...if the runner (or batter-runner) safely advances for any reason, the pitch in the dirt is acknowledged and "blamed".

[Dan Ruehle]

OK, you ask, and I shall supply. Please look at https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2005/B10120CHA2005.htm, 2005 ALCS game. You can see the description here. The scoring of the bottom of the 9th goes like this:

Quote

WHITE SOX 9TH: Everett grounded out (first unassisted); Rowand
struck out; Pierzynski struck out advanced to first on an error
by Paul; low pitch; Josh Paul thought he caught it and rolled
the ball to the mound; HP umpire Doug Eddings ruled a trap and
A.J. Pierzynski made it to 1B; OZUNA RAN FOR PIERZYNSKI;
Ozuna stole second; Crede doubled to left [Ozuna scored
(unearned)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.  Angels 1, White Sox 2.

As can be clearly seen, Pierzynski struck out, it was ruled a dropped 3rd strike, no WP or PB charged, but an error was charged to Josh Paul, the catcher. As this is a postseason game, I am sure this would be corrected if the scoring were indeed wrong.

[Dan Ruehle]

I am actually surprised how few people think that an error should be able to be charged in a situation like this and instead just say that the rules state otherwise and we should blindly follow the rules. The only way rules are improved is by people questioning and challenging them. I totally understand the rules state that an error cannot be charged if the batter-runner makes it to first base. I just think that the rules are limiting and that it should be possible to charge an error in this situation if one is indeed warranted, as happened in the 2005 ALCS. Now, making it an option may make scorers incorrectly score plays, but that is another issue.

[beerguy55]

42 minutes ago, Dan Ruehle said:

I am actually surprised how few people think that an error should be able to be charged in a situation like this and instead just say that the rules state otherwise and we should blindly follow the rules. The only way rules are improved is by people questioning and challenging them. I totally understand the rules state that an error cannot be charged if the batter-runner makes it to first base. I just think that the rules are limiting and that it should be possible to charge an error in this situation if one is indeed warranted, as happened in the 2005 ALCS. Now, making it an option may make scorers incorrectly score plays, but that is another issue.

Then send that case to Game Changer for review - to see if they would score it to make it consistent with MLB scoring.  They would have every incentive to do clarify the discrepancy, because some day their wish is likely to have all MLB scoring run on the Gamechanger engine. There are a few possibilities here:

1. that's the correct way to do it

2. that's the incorrect way to do it - scorekeeper made a mistake

3. it was scored correctly in 2005, but would be scored differently in 2018 - ie. rule was modified in past decade

Most of the time these things are academic and there's no priority to correct them - hell, it took 80 years for MLB to correct Cobb's hit total.  In this case, the only ones who care are the pitcher and catcher.  And even then, they might not.  If you change it from an error to a PB, it still stays an unearned run - and you're just shifting one bad catcher stat to another bad catcher stat.  If you change it to a WP then it becomes an earned run, and the catcher improves his fielding stats - then they care.

The game history is wrought with shifty score keeping "judgments" that seem to benefit either a home hitter's average or a home pitcher's ERA....or the difference between a no hitter and a one hitter.  In the end, I doubt anybody cares because it all evens out eventually...and none of it ever impacted the outcome of a game.

 

tbh, this example is the perfect situation where an error would be justified, rather than a pb/wp, if the rules do allow it - namely, the catcher came up with it cleanly - didn't have to chase a bouncing ball anywhere - didn't even have to throw as the batter was still in the box.  To me it's analogous to the catcher and pitcher thinking strike two was strike three, catcher rolling ball to mound while pitcher walks off, and R1 advancing - E2 all day -  having said that...the situation was created by the catcher not catching the third strike - I have no problem ruling this a WP/PB in lieu of an error.