Little League

[Guest Little League]

 And a Little League game. Bottom of the last inning two outs runner on second base, ground ball is hit to second base it’s fielded throwing to first The Umpire at first base calls the out.  Three outs game is over but then the coach of the other team wants to ask the Homeplate umpire to review the play the play gets overturned and the runner at first is called safe and also the runner from second is allowed to score tying the game Should that runner be allowed to score or should he be back on third

[Mudisfun]

If the runner from 1st was ruled safe, regardless if when the play originally happened, or after the umpires got together and changed the call, the runner from 3rd scores. There would be no rule supporting calling the batter/runner safe and putting R3 back at 3rd. If this play happened with 1 out and the B/R was out, wouldn't R3's run count then? Same outcome when he is ruled safe with 2 outs on the board.

With a runner on 3rd, U2 should be in C. I am envisioning that the offensive team believed that F3 pulled his foot, so they asked U2 to get together with his partner and see if he had any information. If the PU saw F3 not touching the bag, then he would share that info with his partner who then, based on this new information, could change his original call from out to safe. This happens quite often since from the C position, especially when working outside the infield, the field umpire often is straight lined with the throw and cannot tell if F3 pulled his foot or not.

The goal here is to get the call right. 

 

[noumpere]

Something was lost in translation (or edited) because the OP says it was R2 and Mudisfun answered for R3.

If a call is overturned, the umpire should judge what would have happened and make it so -- if it was a fast runner from second, and he never stopped and it was a slow roller -- maybe scoring the run is the right thing to do.  If he held up, and then proceeded home "after" the play -- put him back on third.

[Aging_Arbiter]

10 hours ago, noumpere said:

Something was lost in translation (or edited) because the OP says it was R2 and Mudisfun answered for R3.

IS THAT where they got the expression................"Clear as Mud"??

[LRZ]

12 hours ago, Guest Little League said:

the coach of the other team wants to ask the Homeplate umpire to review the play

A tangent to the OP's question, but this is the part that bewilders me.

[noumpere]

34 minutes ago, LRZ said:

A tangent to the OP's question, but this is the part that bewilders me.

The "team" is the tam that made the defensive play.  The "other team" is, then, the offense.

 

And, yes, the OP should have paid more attention in English class.

[LRZ]

I get which team is which, but what I'm picturing is the OC asking the PU to "review" (i.e., "overturn"?) the BU's call, instead of going to the BU and asking him to get help (if other than a straight judgment call).

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

I get which team is which, but what I'm picturing is the OC asking the PU to "review" (i.e., "overturn"?) the BU's call, instead of going to the BU and asking him to get help (if other than a straight judgment call).

The coach often goes to PU on this.  If PU went directly to F3 and gave help, that's an issue -- but it's an umpiring issue, not really relevant to the OP's question.

[LRZ]

Just now, noumpere said:

The coach often goes to PU on this.  If PU went directly to F3 and gave help, that's an issue -- but it's an umpiring issue, not really relevant to the OP's question.

That's why I said it was tangential. The lesson for the OP is (1) go to the umpire whose call is in question and (2) one umpire cannot overrule another. You and I know these things, but posters may not.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

I get which team is which, but what I'm picturing is the OC asking the PU to "review" (i.e., "overturn"?) the BU's call, instead of going to the BU and asking him to get help (if other than a straight judgment call).

Coaches, especially inexperienced ones, tend to believe the PU is "in charge".

 

Besides...the post didn't say the coach asked the PU...it says he WANTED TO....this could very well mean he went to the BU and wanted help from PU.

[Guest NJ Coach]

To me,  'making things right' means sending runner back to third for two reasons:

1. The ball never left the infield and it's hard to imagine a runner would score from second on such a play.

2. When the third out is called, the defense has no expectation to have to make another play.   You just can't pretend the third out wasn't called.

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

To me,  'making things right' means sending runner back to third for two reasons:

1. The ball never left the infield and it's hard to imagine a runner would score from second on such a play.

2. When the third out is called, the defense has no expectation to have to make another play.   You just can't pretend the third out wasn't called.

Depending a bit on the level of play, it's reasonably common for R2 to try hard for the plate on a grounder with two outs.  If the batter is safe, the runner has some expectation of being safe -- wither F3 looks at the umpire to see what he called, or just forgets about the runner, etc.

[CJK]

18 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

To me,  'making things right' means sending runner back to third for two reasons:

1. The ball never left the infield and it's hard to imagine a runner would score from second on such a play.

2. When the third out is called, the defense has no expectation to have to make another play.   You just can't pretend the third out wasn't called.

I don't think these are reasonable blanket statements.

1.  R2 has a huge jump compared to B/R, especially because s/he's off on contact with 2 outs.  R2 can likely be well around 3B and headed home by the time F4 actually makes a throw, and it's pretty common for the F4 for pat the ball in the glove, check the seams, shuffle the feet, and take something off the throw, all because s/he "has time."  Once all that has happened, if F3 is off-balance from the effort of stretching enough that s/he may have pulled his/her foot, I'd say a decent runner has a pretty good chance of scoring.

2.  Depending on the level of the umpire, the timing of this call should be such that it's unlikely that the fielder could react to it in time to get a moderately hustling R2 at home.  It's not a video game with instant feedback, and there should be no hurry at all to make an out call at 1B if that's what the umpire had.

[Rich Ives]

1 minute ago, CJK said:

I don't think these are reasonable blanket statements.

1.  R2 has a huge jump compared to B/R, especially because s/he's off on contact with 2 outs.  R2 can likely be well around 3B and headed home by the time F4 actually makes a throw, and it's pretty common for the F4 for pat the ball in the glove, check the seams, shuffle the feet, and take something off the throw, all because s/he "has time."  Once all that has happened, if F3 is off-balance from the effort of stretching enough that s/he may have pulled his/her foot, I'd say a decent runner has a pretty good chance of scoring.

2.  Depending on the level of the umpire, the timing of this call should be such that it's unlikely that the fielder could react to it in time to get a moderately hustling R2 at home.  It's not a video game with instant feedback, and there should be no hurry at all to make an out call at 1B if that's what the umpire had.

This was a LL game. Get real.

[beerguy55]

24 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

To me,  'making things right' means sending runner back to third for two reasons:

1. The ball never left the infield and it's hard to imagine a runner would score from second on such a play.

2. When the third out is called, the defense has no expectation to have to make another play.   You just can't pretend the third out wasn't called.

Making things right would be evaluating all the conditions of the play.

Your position is probably a good default one, especially if neither ump can truly say where R2 was when play at first was made, but, fast runner, slow grounder, he could be going all the way if B/R beats out the throw.   If R2 is faster than the batter, who beat out the throw, then R2 is well past third.

Ultimately, HTBT to see where R2 should be placed.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, CJK said:

and it's pretty common for the F4 for pat the ball in the glove, check the seams, shuffle the feet, and take something off the throw, all because s/he "has time."

None of this really matters.  We already know that B/R beat out the throw to first.

All we need to know is whether or not R2 runs faster than B/R to determine what distance R2 covered in the time B/R covered 60 feet, and possibly add a two step jump.

[Guest NJ Coach]

Once more, F3 hears the Out call and ceases playing, and understandably so.  If the umpire believes R2 was so fast and far enough along to have been safe at the plate even if F3 threw there,  OK, count the run.
 

But it seems to me an after the fact' reversal is highly unfair to the defense in a situation like this.   The Out call understandably ended the play and the inning for F3.

[beerguy55]

6 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Once more, F3 hears the Out call and ceases playing, and understandably so.  If the umpire believes R2 was so fast and far enough along to have been safe at the plate even if F3 threw there,  OK, count the run.
 

But it seems to me an after the fact' reversal is highly unfair to the defense in a situation like this.   The Out call understandably ended the play and the inning for F3.

Yup - it's just evaluating what would have happened...if B/R was initially called safe would R2 have scored...would he have tried to score...would F3 had had a play.   If R2 is not only around third, but F3 had to stretch to catch the ball, and ends up sitting on his ass facing the outfield by the end of the play, that would be one more factor in determining if it's appropriate to score R2 or not.   I think you start with R2 on third as your default, and see if there are any facts that justify scoring him.

[CJK]

29 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

This was a LL game. Get real.

25 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

None of this really matters.  We already know that B/R beat out the throw to first.

All we need to know is whether or not R2 runs faster than B/R to determine what distance R2 covered in the time B/R covered 60 feet, and possibly add a two step jump.

Sorry, guys.  I thought was a chance to look at the broader situation and maybe learn something, not just second-guess some guy on a neighborhood field in NJ.

Thanks for helping me put it into perspective.

 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, CJK said:

Sorry, guys.  I thought was a chance to look at the broader situation and maybe learn something, not just second-guess some guy on a neighborhood field in NJ.

Thanks for helping me put it into perspective.

 

Methinks you're being a little sensitive.  I agree with your assessment that there are factors that could justify scoring R2 here.  The "this doesn't matter" statement applied exactly to the piece that was quoted - ie.  that information is irrelevant to the final assessment.  

[Mudisfun]

Sorry guys, I read this as R3 coming home, not R2.

 

[maineump]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 12:30 PM, CJK said:

Sorry, guys.  I thought was a chance to look at the broader situation and maybe learn something, not just second-guess some guy on a neighborhood field in NJ.

Thanks for helping me put it into perspective.

 

Just trying to wrap my mind around the play - Was the original play overturned for a pulled foot or a swipe tag? Or did the PU overturn the play because the BR beat the throw?

To me it makes a difference, because at any level the 1B umpire should only get help on the pulled foot or the swipe tag. If the play was overturned on the timing of it, then it is a different story.

IMO, I would place R2 on 3B (not seeing any of the play), as it is a short throw from 2B to 1B.