Can you do anything here?

[goody14]

Start at about the 48:00 mark.

R2, R3 with 2 outs. Batter clips catcher's glove on swing but still serves ball into center field. Home plate umpire kills the play immediately and places batter at 1B keeping R2 and R3 in place. As all runners would have gotten a base, including B/R, the interference should have been disregarded. 

Can the umpire do anything to correct the misapplication of the rule? Also, what would you if you were a field umpire?

 

[Mike D]

Once the Time has been called and the ball ruled dead, there isn't any taking it back. The only thing that can be done to "fix" the situation is the umpires would get together and attempt to determine where the runners would have ended up without time being called, then place the runners.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

DIdn't watch the video, but :

Whenever the umpire messes up like this, you will find tension between those who want to "do what's right" (advance the runners) and those who "go by the rules" (return the runners, unless forced).  It's similar to the questions we get periodically (including recently) on "the runner and the umpire collide -- the runner would have made an extra base" and whether this is UI (it's not).

You can't really use 10-2-3 because the rule is pretty clear on what to do when time is called.  And, you can't use the "rectify situations" clause because a rule wasn't reversed.

The best we can hope for is that the umpire learns from this mistake.

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

DIdn't watch the video, but :

Whenever the umpire messes up like this, you will find tension between those who want to "do what's right" (advance the runners) and those who "go by the rules" (return the runners, unless forced).  It's similar to the questions we get periodically (including recently) on "the runner and the umpire collide -- the runner would have made an extra base" and whether this is UI (it's not).

You can't really use 10-2-3 because the rule is pretty clear on what to do when time is called.  And, you can't use the "rectify situations" clause because a rule wasn't reversed.

The best we can hope for is that the umpire learns from this mistake.

Agree with all of the above, and as you said, the "rectify situation" rule (10-2-3L) doesn't provide enough latitude to "unkill" a play.

[Jimurray]

Would OBR allow the play to stand as both sides ignored the time call at least until relaxed action?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Agree with all of the above, and as you said, the "rectify situation" rule (10-2-3L) doesn't provide enough latitude to "unkill" a play.

If I'm the offensive coach I'm asking for the option of the penalty or the play. The play happened and was not stopped by the PU's signal. FED will allow a HR to stand even though the umpire called it foul. 

[grayhawk]

If I'm the offensive coach I'm asking for the option of the penalty or the play. The play happened and was not stopped by the PU's signal. FED will allow a HR to stand even though the umpire called it foul. 

I get what you’re saying, but if I’m the defensive coach, I’m saying that you called time and it doesn’t matter that the players kept playing. Which coach is more likely to win a protest?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

 

I get what you’re saying, but if I’m the defensive coach, I’m saying that you called time and it doesn’t matter that the players kept playing. Which coach is more likely to win a protest?

 

If they agree that the players kept playing they might say that the ball wasn't dead. They have precedence in that a HR is not dead when an umpire erroneously signals it foul. But I wonder if the OP was even a mechanic kick. I saw an article, regarding the winning team, that claimed FED was different and killed CI/CO right away, possibly conflating the balk rule difference. If it was a rule kick how would a protest committee rule?

[grayhawk]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If they agree that the players kept playing they might say that the ball wasn't dead. They have precedence in that a HR is not dead when an umpire erroneously signals it foul. But I wonder if the OP was even a mechanic kick. I saw an article, regarding the winning team, that claimed FED was different and killed CI/CO right away, possibly conflating the balk rule difference. If it was a rule kick how would a protest committee rule?

They probably interviewed the announcers who thought that only in pro ball does the offense get the choice of the penalty or the result of the play.  Unfortunately, it seems the crew on the field didn't know the rule any better.

[Jimurray]

48 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

They probably interviewed the announcers who thought that only in pro ball does the offense get the choice of the penalty or the result of the play.  Unfortunately, it seems the crew on the field didn't know the rule any better.

Hey, high level high school state playoffs, how could that happen? Don't ask @Jglopez7 in Texas

 

 

[udbrky]

Batter's uncle is an umpire and I guess this play happened earlier with them. The crowd was chanting "8-1-1" at the crew. 

 

In sectionals, my crew got the play correct with this team at bat, sucks for them. I am shocked their coach didn't get tossed over this play.

[goody14]

I was curious about the potential protest angle when I started the OP. Given he killed the ball and as stated by others rule 10 does not cover this instance, I am not sure the IHSAA could do anything. They have since come out and said the rule was misapplied. 

I found it curious he did not go for help and no other umpire came in to offer anything. If a rule is misapplied, I think I go and chat with the other guy - especially in a semi-state game. Not sure if that is a best practice or not.

Tough situation all around.

[noumpere]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

If I'm the offensive coach I'm asking for the option of the penalty or the play. The play happened and was not stopped by the PU's signal. FED will allow a HR to stand even though the umpire called it foul. 

And I'd let the home run (or GRD) stand in the OP on the same principle.  But, FED would have it be a foul ball if PU mistakenly declared it as such in the OP.

[Tborze]

Anyone notice U2's positioning?

With R1 and R3 he was in C.  With bases loaded he moved to B.  Is that recommended for IHSAA or optional?  How is it in other states?

PU sold the hell out of a wrong call!

 

[noumpere]

25 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Anyone notice U2's positioning?

With R1 and R3 he was in C.  With bases loaded he moved to B.  Is that recommended for IHSAA or optional?  How is it in other states?

 

There are really three options, and all of them are in use somewhere.

1) C whenever a steal of third is possible; otherwise B

2) B whenever a steal of second is possible; otherwise C

3) C whenever there's R2 or R3; otherwise B.

(And, "possible" means the base is empty, but the one "behind" it is occupied.)

I prefer 2; my HS association required 1.

Based on your description, the umpire was using something else.

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, grayhawk said:

 

I get what you’re saying, but if I’m the defensive coach, I’m saying that you called time and it doesn’t matter that the players kept playing. Which coach is more likely to win a protest?

 

 

16 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Would OBR allow the play to stand as both sides ignored the time call at least until relaxed action?

In OBR, I assume it would be the offensive coach that wins this argument.  Going to the MLB playoffs a few years back when Martin's throw back to the mound hit Soo and bounced away allowing Odor to score - PU killed the play before Odor advanced and then (correctly) awarded the run after....leading to a 75 minute inning.

[maven]

20 hours ago, noumpere said:

DIdn't watch the video, but :

Whenever the umpire messes up like this, you will find tension between those who want to "do what's right" (advance the runners) and those who "go by the rules" (return the runners, unless forced).  It's similar to the questions we get periodically (including recently) on "the runner and the umpire collide -- the runner would have made an extra base" and whether this is UI (it's not).

You can't really use 10-2-3 because the rule is pretty clear on what to do when time is called.  And, you can't use the "rectify situations" clause because a rule wasn't reversed.

The best we can hope for is that the umpire learns from this mistake.

Me too. This is baseball's equivalent of an inadvertent whistle in basketball or football: one side is going to be rather unhappy with the outcome (though in those sports the outcome is dictated by a specific rule).

[udbrky]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

There are really three options, and all of them are in use somewhere.

1) C whenever a steal of third is possible; otherwise B

2) B whenever a steal of second is possible; otherwise C

3) C whenever there's R2 or R3; otherwise B.

(And, "possible" means the base is empty, but the one "behind" it is occupied.)

I prefer 2; my HS association required 1.

Based on your description, the umpire was using something else.

Is that for 4-man? I like having the look from B with R2 and C with R1 - deep on both that is.

[grayhawk]

1 minute ago, udbrky said:

Is that for 4-man? I like having the look from B with R2 and C with R1 - deep on both that is.

I'm not a fan of deep C (in 3 or 4 man) with R1 stealing.  The potential issues are:

1.  Runners slide to the outside of the bag, and the angle from C is not good.  B gives you a much better look for the most likely tag locations.
2.  Being deep in C gives you only an instant to see the critical action.  The reason is because the ball is supposed to turn you to the play and if you're deep, you have to turn at the last second.  If you are in regular C (if B isn't an option in your association), then you can turn earlier and even wrap around a little to get a better angle.

[udbrky]

1 minute ago, grayhawk said:

I'm not a fan of deep C (in 3 or 4 man) with R1 stealing.  The potential issues are:

1.  Runners slide to the outside of the bag, and the angle from C is not good.  B gives you a much better look for the most likely tag locations.
2.  Being deep in C gives you only an instant to see the critical action.  The reason is because the ball is supposed to turn you to the play and if you're deep, you have to turn at the last second.  If you are in regular C (if B isn't an option in your association), then you can turn earlier and even wrap around a little to get a better angle.

Thanks, I have experimented with both and am still trying to get more 3-man experience. I thought in 3man, you wanted to be on the 3B side though more. 

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Is that for 4-man? I like having the look from B with R2 and C with R1 - deep on both that is.

2-person.  Sorry for the confusion.

[udbrky]

Just now, noumpere said:

2-person.  Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, this was a 4-man crew, that's why I was wondering which you were talking about with positioning, because of steals at 3B.

[noumpere]

Just now, udbrky said:

Oh, this was a 4-man crew, that's why I was wondering which you were talking about with positioning, because of steals at 3B.

Then I amend my answer:  U2 can go to either B or C depending on his preference.  I prefer deep B for all 4-man configurations when U2 in inside.

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Thanks, I have experimented with both and am still trying to get more 3-man experience. I thought in 3man, you wanted to be on the 3B side though more. 

Our HS association requires U3 to be in C when he's inside.  CCA allows B or C and I would say 80% of the umpires that I know prefer B.  It's just a better look at the most likely tag on a steal of second base.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Our HS association requires U3 to be in C when he's inside.  CCA allows B or C and I would say 80% of the umpires that I know prefer B.  It's just a better look at the most likely tag on a steal of second base.

I like deep B in 3 or 4 man with only R1. It's usuallly the best look at the tag of a stealing R1 and it is the look you have been getting throughout  your regular season in 2 man, especially if you are nimble enough to drift back with the throw.