Run scoring on third out

[Guest Danny]

Bases loaded, 2 outs, ground ball to 2nd baseman, 2nd baseman tries to tag runner from first, runner goes out of baseline and is called out, runner from third scores before out call. Does the run count?

[stkjock]

nope

 

the runner was called out before reaching the base he was forced to, no run scores.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

nope

 

the runner was called out before reaching the base he was forced to, no run scores.

Are we sure about that?  The runner hasn't been forced out.

We've seen in another thread, about the GHSA fiasco, that if the runner is called out for abandoning the base path that it is not a force, and that the run would count until the defense appeals to the base the runner abandoned.

Why would calling a runner out for moving three feet off the baseline be treated differently?

In both cases it is the umpire ruling the runner out for an action of the runner, rather than the defense actually putting the runner out.

 

Abandonment, leaving baseline, and tagging the runner or base on a force, are three different instances to put a runner out.  The rule to prevent the run only covers the tagged runner or base on a force, does it not?

I would agree that a forced runner who is put out in ANY fashion should be treated like a force, but apparently a runner who abandons is not.

[MT73]

A force by any means is a force.

And if it is the 3rd out no runs are scored.

Suppose the runner backed up and was not tagged until R3 crossed the plate.

Are you going to score the run.

Not that it matters but this has nothing to do with the GHSA situation which was an appeal for a missed base which, had it been properly honored, would have negated the run because it was a force situation.

BTW-- if abdonment does not qualify as a force out wouldn't all batter runners fail to advance to first  in a two out situation with runners on base?

[ElkOil]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Are we sure about that?  The runner hasn't been forced out.

We've seen in another thread, about the GHSA fiasco, that if the runner is called out for abandoning the base path that it is not a force, and that the run would count until the defense appeals to the base the runner abandoned.

Why would calling a runner out for moving three feet off the baseline be treated differently?

In both cases it is the umpire ruling the runner out for an action of the runner, rather than the defense actually putting the runner out.

 

Abandonment, leaving baseline, and tagging the runner or base on a force, are three different instances to put a runner out.  The rule to prevent the run only covers the tagged runner or base on a force, does it not?

I would agree that a forced runner who is put out in ANY fashion should be treated like a force, but apparently a runner who abandons is not.

@maven!!

I would be inclined to agree with @stkjock and @MT73. But after reading the FED definition of a force out in 2-24-1, I'm wondering if @beerguy55 has it right. I now believe I'm over-thinking this.

SECTION 24 OUT: FORCE-OUT, PUTOUT, STRIKEOUT, TAG OUT, THROW-OUT ART. 1 . . . A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing (9-1-1 for special case.)

[MT73]

So-- if a forced runner is called out for interference I guess Fed would not consider this to be a force out either.

Yes, you are overthinking this.

My solution is not to umpire games played with Fed rules.

[cp9]

It is treated the same as an appeal play.  For example, bases loaded, two out, and R2 misses 3rd, defense appeals and no runs score because R2 was forced.  Same thing with a runner out of his base path.  It is technically an appeal play, but as noted in the NFHS case book, "The umpire calls the runner out without waiting for the defensive player to call attention to the act."

[MT73]

But an appeal on a force play is still a force.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, MT73 said:

 

Suppose the runner backed up and was not tagged until R3 crossed the plate.

Are you going to score the run.

 

No, because the rule for a force out specifically says that the runner or the base can be tagged - so tagging the runner would qualify as the force out.

I'm simply going by what was posted in the other thread - quoted below - that says abandonment of a forced runner isn't a force play...but the defense could then appeal to second.

My assumption is that leaving the base line would be treated the same as abandonment.

I'm just connecting the dots:

1. Abandonment, leaving the base path, and tagging a forced runner (whether the person or the base) are three separately identified ways to put a runner out

2. A run doesn't score if the third out is made by any runner forced out (nothing about abandonment, or leaving the base path, or others) 

3. At least one set of instructions says that a runner that abandons his base is not a force out

4. The rules do say that an appeal to a missed base that was forced is treated as a force

"There's also this from J/R:

During a force, any consecutive runner who abandons his advance base is not a 7.10
force out. However, an appeal of the abandoned base as a missed base can be
upheld for an advantageous fourth out (see second example below).
Examples:
(Example 1 removed -- not relevant)

2– R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base."

In conclusion, though my instincts and gut would have told me that the runner should be treated as a force, the documentation says, to me, otherwise.

 

12 hours ago, MT73 said:

BTW-- if abdonment does not qualify as a force out wouldn't all batter runners fail to advance to first  in a two out situation with runners on base?

Well, you'd have to have the runner score before base runners abandon (if abandonment happens first, then the third out happens before the run scores), and even if they do pull it off, the defense can still appeal for the fourth out.  I'd assume you'd have the same right to appeal on the leaving the base path scenario.  Not to mention that a batter/runner can't be called for abandonment before reaching first base.

11 hours ago, MT73 said:

So-- if a forced runner is called out for interference I guess Fed would not consider this to be a force out either.

Wouldn't matter, because on interference R3 wouldn't score, he'd have to return to third.  But, technically, no, it's not a force.  For example, with bases loaded if R1 is hit with a batted ball he is out and the batter actually gets credited with a single, so it can't be a force out - if it was a force out the batter would get a fielder's choice, not a hit.   And R3 is returned to third, so no run scores.

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, MT73 said:

So-- if a forced runner is called out for interference I guess Fed would not consider this to be a force out either.

Yes, you are overthinking this.

My solution is not to umpire games played with Fed rules.

OBR has the same conundrum.

 

I think the difference is that in abandonment, the runner isn't depriving the defense of the opportunity to make a play on him.  In running out of the baseline, he is -- so treat the out as if the tag had been made (making it a force out in the play we are discussing).

[cp9]

8 hours ago, MT73 said:

But an appeal on a force play is still a force.

Of course, of course!

[MT73]

45 minutes ago, cp9 said:

Of course, of course!

This is getting confusing.

In any game I am calling--be it OBR or Federation-- if the third out is made or declared in a force situation I will not score any runs.

Let them file a formal protest and who knows, maybe there will be another Georgia type ruling on this.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

I think the difference is that in abandonment, the runner isn't depriving the defense of the opportunity to make a play on him.  In running out of the baseline, he is -- so treat the out as if the tag had been made (making it a force out in the play we are discussing).

Imagine this scenario.  Two out.  R1/R2/R3...batted ball to F4 about ten feet from second base.  R1 is still about 45 feet from second base.

A. R1 waits a second for R3 to score, and then just jogs towards his dugout knowing he has no hope

B. R1 jogs at F4, lets R3 cross home, and then runs five feet off the baseline to avoid the tag   (forget about F4's stupidity for a second)

I would argue that in both scenarios R1 has deprived the defense of making a play on him.  

If BR reaches first, we believe in A the run would count unless an appeal was made to second base.  Are we saying in B it would be "considered" a tag, thereby satisfying the requirement of tagging the runner or the base?

I've always wondered if leaving the base path was closer to abandonment than a tag.

[noumpere]

I think you are thinking too  much about a play that's not likely to happen.  Sometimes, we just need to umpire.  And, give the benefit of the doubt to the team that didn't FU.

There's no benefit of the doubt in play A -- the run scores pending a play at second.

There's a benefit of the doubt in play B -- don't count the run.

[beerguy55]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I think you are thinking too  much about a play that's not likely to happen.  Sometimes, we just need to umpire.  And, give the benefit of the doubt to the team that didn't FU.

There's no benefit of the doubt in play A -- the run scores pending a play at second.

There's a benefit of the doubt in play B -- don't count the run.

Perhaps, but I'm assuming from the OP that the play did happen.

I never would have thought twice about it if I hadn't been told that abandonment on a forced runner isn't a force, so I asked.

Practically speaking, I like MT73's approach to both scenarios...don't score the run and let the protest committee deal with it.  IMO the run shouldn't count in either scenario, in following the spirit of the rule of the forced runner making the third out.

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Perhaps, but I'm assuming from the OP that the play did happen.

I never would have thought twice about it if I hadn't been told that abandonment on a forced runner isn't a force, so I asked.

Practically speaking, I like MT73's approach to both scenarios...don't score the run and let the protest committee deal with it.  IMO the run shouldn't count in either scenario, in following the spirit of the rule of the forced runner making the third out.

That's what lots of people come up wioht when first presented with the "abandonment" scenario.  In fact, I think one of the "expert authorities" (or whatever term we hav eused) had that once -- it wouldn't really surprise me that it get changed back if some such play happens in MLB.

For now, though, it's the exception that proves the rule.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

That's what lots of people come up wioht when first presented with the "abandonment" scenario.  In fact, I think one of the "expert authorities" (or whatever term we hav eused) had that once -- it wouldn't really surprise me that it get changed back if some such play happens in MLB.

For now, though, it's the exception that proves the rule.

Interestingly, 2017 MLBUM added this interp: "A base runner called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s)."

[MT73]

Well, that settles it.

Thanks.

I never managed this would have been an issue in the past.

Live and learn.

Question--will this be adopted by Federation?