1BC Shouting Unnecessarily

[jlutgen0]

This is a situation I had last year and I want to hear your guys' thoughts on the topic. First games for this year are Saturday and I'm itching to go. 

 

Kids were either 9 or 10, we're playing full baseball under OBR rules. I'm base umpire. Strike three caught by the catcher, plate umpire immediately comes up with an out and verbalizes that the batter is out. In an attempt to lure a throw from the young catcher, the 1BC starts yelling "run, run" to the batter. At this point the plate umpire repeats that the batter is out, as the 1BC continues to yell. The inexperienced catcher ends up throwing the ball to first unnecessarily, allowing a runner to score from third. 

 

The HC of the defensive team was upset, but my partner and I reasoned that the catcher (and coaches) need to know the situation and be talking to the players. I went to the 1BC between innings and had a brief talk, basically asking that he limits the yelling once he realizes the batter is out. 

 

Did my partner and I handle this correctly? Is there something else we should have done? 

Thanks. 

[LittleBlue]

I'm also of the opinion that players should know the situation and whether or not they caught the ball. That being said, since you said the kids were 9/10, we probably can't expect them to always know the situation and what's going on. At that age I might do something, but in any high school or travel ball, where I know the players are good enough to know what's what, then it's their fault for listening to the opposing coach after the PU clearly said the batter was out.

[beerguy55]

Well, it sounds like the purpose was to confuse the defense - especially for this age group.   I wouldn't weep if you called R3 out, but in the end think you made the right call.  Teachable moment for the catcher.  It's Bush League at best, and typically speaking most Bush League plays are outside the ump's purview.

Having said that, I have seen coaches that want/instruct their kids to run to first on ANY strikeout - especially at that age - as a habit.  So he may have just been getting the kid to do that.

[jlutgen0]

5 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Well, it sounds like the purpose was to confuse the defense - especially for this age group.   I wouldn't weep if you called R3 out, but in the end think you made the right call.  Teachable moment for the catcher.  It's Bush League at best, and typically speaking most Bush League plays are outside the ump's purview.

Having said that, I have seen coaches that want/instruct their kids to run to first on ANY strikeout - especially at that age - as a habit.  So he may have just been getting the kid to do that.

That was the explanation he gave me between innings, which kind of confirmed to me that we may have handled it all correctly. 

[stkjock]

Warn the HC that's its unsportsman like conduct and that HC and 1BC will be EJ'd if it happens again

 

[Richvee]

25 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Having said that, I have seen coaches that want/instruct their kids to run to first on ANY strikeout - especially at that age - as a habit.  So he may have just been getting the kid to do that.

B*%%  $h*t.  He got an unnecessary throw from a 9 year old F2 and scored a bush league run. Hope he's proud of himself.  If half these Daddy coaches spent half the time they spend on trick and bush league plays on teaching baseball  fundamentals, .......ah never mind...I feel rant coming on..better I stop here.

[basejester]

31 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Having said that, I have seen coaches that want/instruct their kids to run to first on ANY strikeout - especially at that age - as a habit.  So he may have just been getting the kid to do that.

And then R3 just accidentally scored?

 

[maven]

Kill it and put everyone back. Explain to the OC that you thought that the 1BC was injured.

[Mad Mike]

[Rich Ives]

5 hours ago, jlutgen0 said:

This is a situation I had last year and I want to hear your guys' thoughts on the topic. First games for this year are Saturday and I'm itching to go. 

 

Kids were either 9 or 10, we're playing full baseball under OBR rules. I'm base umpire. Strike three caught by the catcher, plate umpire immediately comes up with an out and verbalizes that the batter is out. In an attempt to lure a throw from the young catcher, the 1BC starts yelling "run, run" to the batter. At this point the plate umpire repeats that the batter is out, as the 1BC continues to yell. The inexperienced catcher ends up throwing the ball to first unnecessarily, allowing a runner to score from third. 

 

The HC of the defensive team was upset, but my partner and I reasoned that the catcher (and coaches) need to know the situation and be talking to the players. I went to the 1BC between innings and had a brief talk, basically asking that he limits the yelling once he realizes the batter is out. 

 

Did my partner and I handle this correctly? Is there something else we should have done? 

Thanks. 

Was the ball caught in flight? The reactions by both the PU (the out calls - not usually done on just a K) and the 1BC (calling run thinking it might not have been caught maybe) say it may have been questionable. Also, was 1B occupied?

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

B*%%  $h*t.  He got an unnecessary throw from a 9 year old F2 and scored a bush league run. Hope he's proud of himself.  If half these Daddy coaches spent half the time they spend on trick and bush league plays on teaching baseball  fundamentals, .......ah never mind...I feel rant coming on..better I stop here.

 

4 hours ago, basejester said:

And then R3 just accidentally scored?

 

Do you people actually read full posts in context, or do you just carve out the snippets you want to argue and ignore the rest?

The first half of my post clearly states it looks like an attempt to confuse, and that it was Bush League.

I have indeed seen coaches that teach their kids to run on any K, so I'm not going to rule it out as a possibility, even with R3 scoring...which could be either a result of a bad throw, or simply a surprise.  

But if I'm a betting man and talking about a random coach I've never met, I'm concluding it's a set play.

[Richvee]

7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Do you people actually read full posts in context, or do you just carve out the snippets you want to argue and ignore the rest?

The first half of my post clearly states it looks like an attempt to confuse, and that it was Bush League.

I have indeed seen coaches that teach their kids to run on any K, so I'm not going to rule it out as a possibility, even with R3 scoring...which could be either a result of a bad throw, or simply a surprise.  

But if I'm a betting man and talking about a random coach I've never met, I'm concluding it's a set play.

I understood you post 100%. I get what you said. Not trying to argue. Just saying I'm not buying the "I coach them to run on every strikeout". Yelling to the BR "RUN RUN RUN" when it's clear as day F2 caught the ball and the PU is emphatically calling the batter out... Nothing to argue...It's BS. 

The whole concept of "I tell my kids to run on every strikeout" is poor coaching IMO. (Cue @Rich Ives to tell me I'm wrong )Teach the kids the right way to play. Run when the ball's dropped. And as a coach, yell "RUN" when it's a D3K.

[ElkOil]

23 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I understood you post 100%. I get what you said. Not trying to argue. Just saying I'm not buying the "I coach them to run on every strikeout". Yelling to the BR "RUN RUN RUN" when it's clear as day F2 caught the ball and the PU is emphatically calling the batter out... Nothing to argue...It's BS. 

The whole concept of "I tell my kids to run on every strikeout" is poor coaching IMO. (Cue @Rich Ives to tell me I'm wrong )Teach the kids the right way to play. Run when the ball's dropped. And as a coach, yell "RUN" when it's a D3K.

I agree. Which is why is bothers me when I see batter runners at all levels of the game running when they're not eligible. It's certainly a mix of coaching and simply not knowing the situation. In the case of the OP, it's the former (well, both, really), but in so many other cases, it's the latter.

In the OP, if PU is yelling that the batter is out and the catcher throws the ball anyway, seeing has how they're nine and 10, if I let the play stand, I'd have a chat with the HC between innings about it.

[umpstu]

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

B*%%  $h*t.  He got an unnecessary throw from a 9 year old F2 and scored a bush league run. Hope he's proud of himself.  If half these Daddy coaches spent half the time they spend on trick and bush league plays on teaching baseball  fundamentals, .......ah never mind...I feel rant coming on..better I stop here.

Rant away, brother.  His actions as a coach were horse sh%% at the best.  That's the example he set.

[beerguy55]

28 minutes ago, Richvee said:

 

The whole concept of "I tell my kids to run on every strikeout" is poor coaching IMO. (Cue @Rich Ives to tell me I'm wrong )Teach the kids the right way to play. Run when the ball's dropped. And as a coach, yell "RUN" when it's a D3K.

This I agree with.  It's lazy.  And it's effectively teaching the kids to not think, to not anticipate, to not react.

 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, ElkOil said:

In the OP, if PU is yelling that the batter is out and the catcher throws the ball anyway, seeing has how they're nine and 10, if I let the play stand, I'd have a chat with the HC between innings about it.

If you (properly) let the play stand, then what are you chatting with the coach about?  You've already said (by your actions) that the play is legal, and the coach isn't going to want to hear your personal views on the "bushness" of the play.  Unless you are on the board of directors and the board decides there needs to be some local rule (or administrative action against the coach) on this play, you have no dog in this fight.  Just rule on the play and go on.

[ElkOil]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If you (properly) let the play stand, then what are you chatting with the coach about?  You've already said (by your actions) that the play is legal, and the coach isn't going to want to hear your personal views on the "bushness" of the play.  Unless you are on the board of directors and the board decides there needs to be some local rule (or administrative action against the coach) on this play, you have no dog in this fight.  Just rule on the play and go on.

There are lots of things that we don't immediately address at that level of ball. For example, a pitcher may be balking with every delivery, but instead of calling it, we'll talk to the coach about it. I'd rather do that than risk escalating a situation with a coach who is obviously ratcheting things up anyway.  I doubt by doing so I'm causing much harm. Neither the players nor coaches are too highly skilled at that level, so there are plenty of opportunities to practice preventive umpiring, or at least letting some things slide in favor of taking care of them in a more low-key fashion. Because once we address it, if it still happens, it becomes a different story -- much like my balk example. First tell the coach about it. If it continues, enforce it. In the case of the OP, the coach is participating in gamesmanship and I believe it warrants a quick, non-confrontational conversation.

[noumpere]

If the pitcher "balks" (or is close to it) and doesn't gain an advantage -- then yes, discuss it.  And, a balk is illegal.

 

So, in the OP, if you think it was illegal, but the player doesn't run, or the catcher doesn't throw, or the run doesn't score -- you can address it.  But, given that all of the above did happen, you now need to call it and penalize the team.

Or, in the OP, if you think it was legal -- then there' nothing to say to the coach.

[ElkOil]

30 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Or, in the OP, if you think it was legal -- then there' nothing to say to the coach.

At that level of ball, I think it's only right to address gamesmanship. Legal, yes. But bush league and in the interest of good game management and keeping things smooth, I don't have an issue with going to the coach about it.

[Mudisfun]

At out league 9-10 year olds do not play D3K so strike 3 is strike 3 so not a lot of chance for this bush play.

 

Last night doing a Jr's game and visitors are winning by a 1000 or so... R3 pulls the run 1/2 way to home to draw a throw which of course he does and scores. I have to give it to the coach... the A$$ chewing that kid got was great especially when he told the kid '... and you will be sitting all of the next game. I AM THE COACH, not you.'

Some coaches get it... some don't.

 

 

 

 

[basejester]

On 3/29/2017 at 0:00 AM, beerguy55 said:

 

Do you people actually read full posts in context, or do you just carve out the snippets you want to argue and ignore the rest?

The first half of my post clearly states it looks like an attempt to confuse, and that it was Bush League.

I have indeed seen coaches that teach their kids to run on any K, so I'm not going to rule it out as a possibility, even with R3 scoring...which could be either a result of a bad throw, or simply a surprise.  

But if I'm a betting man and talking about a random coach I've never met, I'm concluding it's a set play.

I read the whole post and appreciate that you attempted a balanced answer.

I'm willing to accept a coach telling me, "Hey, it's legal and I scored a run."  [Shrugs]  Because he's being honest about his intent.

But if he tries to justify it with an instructional purpose, that's incredible and I'm not going to pretend that we're having a real conversation at that point.  Integrity matters.

• This instruction has no long term goal.
• Any instructional purposes could be achieved in private after the play.
• The 3rd base coach doesn't need to capitalize on it.

It's offensive to me when a person is disingenuous and also underestimates my intelligence.