Balk with runner on/over turned

[Guest Bobby]

Runner on first takes off running, pitcher steps off and is called for a balk, runner stops running to take second. The def team tags said runner and the umpires call him out. It's argued the balk renders the play dead. Umpires get together and over turn the balk call and call the runner out as well.  Because of the balk, play is dead and runner gets second, upon the reversal runner goes back to first correct? Or no? 

[Senor Azul]

From the original post:  “pitcher steps off and is called for a balk.” The OP does not say if the pickoff throw was immediate or delayed but no matter. As soon as the infielder caught the ball, the play should have been killed.

From the 2014 PBUC manual (paragraph 8.9, p. 94):  If the balk is followed by a pickoff throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call “Time” the moment the fielder catches the ball, then enforce the balk.

From the Wendelstedt manual (p. 108):  Balk Followed by a Throw—Throw is Caught—If the fielder catches the throw, the umpire will call time and award the runner one base from his original base.

Play 197 (WRIM):  R1, no outs, no count. The pitcher balks by failing to step to first base before throwing to it. The throw is caught by the first baseman and (a) R1 is tagged out; (b) R1 safely slides back into first; (c) R1 is retired at second base while trying to advance. Ruling:  In (a), (b), and (c), R1 is awarded second base and the batter remains at bat with no count.

 

If the umpires had killed the play in the OP at the proper time, then there would not have been an out called—only a base award. If the umpires then conferred and reversed the balk call then the base award to the runner is the only other thing to reverse. The defense would not be losing anything—the offense would lose a base award.

To our guest, Bobby, you are pretty much correct as to what should have happened. Your baseball instincts are good. When your playing days are over you might consider becoming an umpire.

[GPblue]

15 minutes ago, Guest Bobby said:

Runner on first takes off running, pitcher steps off and is called for a balk, runner stops running to take second. The def team tags said runner and the umpires call him out. It's argued the balk renders the play dead. Umpires get together and over turn the balk call and call the runner out as well.  Because of the balk, play is dead and runner gets second, upon the reversal runner goes back to first correct? Or no? 

what rules are being used? OBR? FED? LL?

[noumpere]

It doesn't really matter what the rules code is because the end result in this play is the same.

In FED, a balk is an immediate dead ball.  Award R1 second.

In OBR, the play can continue (depending on exactly what happened / what the balk was), but as soon as R1 is out (and maybe even sooner), the play is dead and R1 will be awarded second.

[Guest Bobby]

It's a men's league. MSBL. We use the MLB rules. 

[johnpatrick]

Sounds like umpires screwed up, called a balk, then reversed their call after realizing that the pitcher did step off.  If so, make it equitable and send the runner back to 1B.

[Guest Bobby]

That's what we're thinking but wanted other opinions. Anyone know what rules that might be?  We were looking a rule 5.02(3)

[Mister B]

35 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It doesn't really matter what the rules code is because the end result in this play is the same.

In FED, a balk is an immediate dead ball.  Award R1 second.

In OBR, the play can continue (depending on exactly what happened / what the balk was), but as soon as R1 is out (and maybe even sooner), the play is dead and R1 will be awarded second.

If R1 is out, how can he be awarded 2B?

[Rich Ives]

13 minutes ago, Mister B said:

If R1 is out, how can he be awarded 2B?

Because of the balk. Unless all runners advance one base safely you negate the plays and enforce the balk.

[Guest Bobby]

We are thinking the runner (R1) is not awarded second base but shouldn't be called out on the tag after umpire calls balk. Since the balk call was over turned runner goes back to first but not called out. We argued the balk call means a dead ball, runner goes to second, because the balk was over turned runner Should go back to first. If in fact the balk means dead ball. 

[noumpere]

29 minutes ago, Guest Bobby said:

That's what we're thinking but wanted other opinions. Anyone know what rules that might be?  We were looking a rule 5.02(3)

It would be the old 9.01(c).  The rules don't really cover an umpire "correction" that places a team at a disadvantage.

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

It would be the old 9.01(c).  The rules don't really cover an umpire "correction" that places a team at a disadvantage.

Au contraire, mon frère. 8.02(c) (old rule 9.02(c)) has this:

Quote

If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires.

 

[MooseLoop]

And if, in the umpire's judgment, the runner was dead meat at the time of the balk call (in other words, runner likely would have been tagged out, even after a rundown), negating the balk and calling the out would be the right call.  

[ALStripes17]

And if, in the umpire's judgment, the runner was dead meat at the time of the balk call (in other words, runner likely would have been tagged out, even after a rundown), negating the balk and calling the out would be the right call.  

Yeah, I wouldn't approve of that.

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[MooseLoop]

3 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Yeah, I wouldn't approve of that.

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Not sure I understand your comment, but I think we are supposed to ignore the "Yeah".  Would you deprive the defense of an out it deserved and give the offense a second chance it did not deserve?  

That being said, I might be tempted, depending on the actual situation, to adjudge that I could not say for sure that R1 would not have successfully retreated to first base, and therefore award him first.

[ALStripes17]

Not sure I understand your comment, but I think we are supposed to ignore the "Yeah".  Would you deprive the defense of an out it deserved and give the offense a second chance it did not deserve?  

That being said, I might be tempted, depending on the actual situation, to adjudge that I could not say for sure that R1 would not have successfully retreated to first base, and therefore award him first.

Assuming the defense can throw and catch in this scenario isn't necessarily backed up by any rule. The umpires messed up if a balk was called and is overturned. I'm not hurting the offense on something they could have initiated on their own (for all we know). Equity here is basically the do-over. No advance, no out. I'm not getting into the 'well the defense could have gotten the out bc theres no rule backing for it. And im sure as heck not invoking the umpire God rule to give an out to the defense.

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