Wondering the Boards Thoughts on this play

[maven]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

FWIW, I think the only reason we don't have MC on R3 is because he's small. For those who say MC on F2, since when does size and weight dictate who's the offending player in a MC call? I see big 10-11 year old waiting to tag a pipsqueak R3 without a lot of common sense who runs full speed into a brick wall.

Let's reverse the kids here....Little squirt of an F2 steps up preparing to put a tag on the future offensive tackle of the Nebraska Cornhuskers who runs straight through F2, knocking him into next Tuesday. Essentially the same play. Each and every one of us will say MC on R3.

I disagree, Rich. I watched it again with your idea in mind, and I still have MC on F2.

R3 is already at the "dirt circle" when F2 emerges from behind the batter.

At that moment, F2 is lining up R3, not the other way round.

R3 should reasonably expect F2 to take one more step and set up in front of the plate for a tag. He doesn't have time to read F2 continuing to come at him, so no opportunity to pull up to avoid a collision 6 feet up the line.

Meanwhile, F2 has lined up R3, moves directly into him, lowers his shoulder, and takes him out.

I don't always judge the same at real speed/first look and after breaking it down, but on this one I did. I also try to be open to alternative judgments, where the play is borderline; I don't feel that this one is.

As for your hypothetical: of course, any time we have a player line up another player and intentionally crash him, we should have MC. Size has no bearing on it, and imagining R3 crashing F2 tells us nothing about what we see in the video.

[Richvee]

47 minutes ago, maven said:

I disagree, Rich. I watched it again with your idea in mind, and I still have MC on F2.

R3 is already at the "dirt circle" when F2 emerges from behind the batter.

At that moment, F2 is lining up R3, not the other way round.

R3 should reasonably expect F2 to take one more step and set up in front of the plate for a tag. He doesn't have time to read F2 continuing to come at him, so no opportunity to pull up to avoid a collision 6 feet up the line.

Meanwhile, F2 has lined up R3, moves directly into him, lowers his shoulder, and takes him out.

I don't always judge the same at real speed/first look and after breaking it down, but on this one I did. I also try to be open to alternative judgments, where the play is borderline; I don't feel that this one is.

As for your hypothetical: of course, any time we have a player line up another player and intentionally crash him, we should have MC. Size has no bearing on it, and imagining R3 crashing F2 tells us nothing about what we see in the video.

I gotta say, that bottom freeze frame looks a lot different than I thought I saw it in real time. I think I would have had nothing real time. This shot says otherwise.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I gotta say, that bottom freeze frame looks a lot different than I thought I saw it in real time. I think I would have had nothing real time. This shot says otherwise.

Do you work football, Rich? In that sport, we have to watch for how a tackler or blocker lowers his head, where and how he hits an opponent. That's helped train me up to see this kind of contact at real speed.

[Richvee]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

Do you work football, Rich? In that sport, we have to watch for how a tackler or blocker lowers his head, where and how he hits an opponent. That's helped train me up to see this kind of contact at real speed.

I'm a baseball only guy. That's a nice "transferable skill" You're getting looks at collisions every play.  That's a whole lot of reps for those plays that we rarely see anymore on the diamond.

[kylejt]

And nobody is questioning the 3rd base coach for sending this kid to his doom? 

 

Yeah, and there's one FB post that blames the umpire. Gotta love it. 

 

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, kylejt said:

And nobody is questioning the 3rd base coach for sending this kid to his doom? 

Yeah, and there's one FB post that blames the umpire. Gotta love it. 

How is this any umpire's problem, let alone fault??!!?!?!?

FaceBook: Giving an Outlet to Idiocy Everywhere.

[Rich Ives]

23 hours ago, kylejt said:

And nobody is questioning the 3rd base coach for sending this kid to his doom? 

 

Yeah, and there's one FB post that blames the umpire. Gotta love it. 

 

You expect a good throw in 10U?

 

[Stk004]

My first reaction when I saw this was if F2 doesn't reach out and make contact with R3 first, he's the one getting leveled. I see this as someone is gonna get dropped, and F2 made sure it wasn't him. @maven gave some good insight with those freeze frames, but MC is something that has to be evaluated at full speed, IMO. When you slow it down and look at subtle body movements frame by frame, oftentimes it makes it look much worse than it was. Full speed I only see arms extended, but it maven's freeze frame I see a lowered shoulder. I'm with @Richvee in that I'm a baseball only guy. And while F2 ran at R3, R3 had no intent of slowing up or sliding and, IMO, F2 protected himself. 

[kylejt]

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

You expect a good throw in 10U?

 

R3 was stealing on the pitch. There was a weak swing-'n-a-missed, followed by R3 blindly running to the plate. What the Hell, Mr. Coach? 

 

I do like how the hobo behind the plate seems to make the catcher go tell the runner "sorry". 

[midtnump]

On 7/17/2016 at 5:57 PM, maven said:

I disagree, Rich. I watched it again with your idea in mind, and I still have MC on F2.

R3 is already at the "dirt circle" when F2 emerges from behind the batter.

At that moment, F2 is lining up R3, not the other way round.

R3 should reasonably expect F2 to take one more step and set up in front of the plate for a tag. He doesn't have time to read F2 continuing to come at him, so no opportunity to pull up to avoid a collision 6 feet up the line.

Meanwhile, F2 has lined up R3, moves directly into him, lowers his shoulder, and takes him out.

I don't always judge the same at real speed/first look and after breaking it down, but on this one I did. I also try to be open to alternative judgments, where the play is borderline; I don't feel that this one is.

As for your hypothetical: of course, any time we have a player line up another player and intentionally crash him, we should have MC. Size has no bearing on it, and imagining R3 crashing F2 tells us nothing about what we see in the video.

I agree @Maven, if you continue to the next frame after your second one, you will see F2's arms extend out. MC all day on F2. Also, I think I saw a base umpire in one of the frames, why didn't PU conference with BU to ask "what did you see? I think I have this." 

[Stk004]

28 minutes ago, midtnump said:

I agree @Maven, if you continue to the next frame after your second one, you will see F2's arms extend out. MC all day on F2. Also, I think I saw a base umpire in one of the frames, why didn't PU conference with BU to ask "what did you see? I think I have this." 

Why wasn't PU wearing shoes? 

[Thawk]

On 6/25/2016 at 9:15 PM, stevis said:

Yeah, full speed, I've got a baseball play made by kids without enough baseball experience to make a better one.  Catcher didn't need to run at him but I didn't see a shove--I saw him run at a runner and apply a tag, and a runner who didn't slide or attempt to get around.

If you slow it down and watch it you actually can see the catcher extend his arms after initial contact.  To me though, that is on the runner.  The pros have gotten rid of that play even, so there is no excuse for it.   

[mrumpiresir]

I always thought a runner in this situation had three options;

Slide legally,

Retreat to third,

or give himself up.

The runner did none of these.  Yes it was a hard tag and I understand why some believe MC is the correct call, but the catcher was protecting himself from the imminent collision.  The runner has to assume some degree of responsibility for the collision.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, mrumpiresir said:

I always thought a runner in this situation had three options;

Slide legally,

Retreat to third,

or give himself up.

 

Attempt to go around too.

[Rich Ives]

Some of you have a really peverse idea of 8-10 year olds.  No way in hell this is MC at that level.