Runner stealing home, 2 out 3/2 count

[Mudisfun]

So on another message board this is the topic of intense discussion... 

 

LL 50/70 so modified OBR but I would be interested in the call for FED as well if there is a difference in the interpretation.

 

R3 - 2 outs, 2 strike count.

R3 steals home on the pitch. He slides into home prior to the ball entering the strike zone. Pitch is a called strike for the 3rd out. Pitch is cleanly caught by the catcher so nothing contacted R3, no D3K.

Does the run score?

[spiffdawg7]

No.  3rd out was made by the BR before reaching first base.  He would have to score before the time of pitch(when the pitcher was committed to pitch) for it to count as scoring before the 3rd out. 

[stkjock]

8 minutes ago, spiffdawg7 said:

No.  3rd out was made by the BR before reaching first base.  He would have to score before the time of pitch(when the pitcher was committed to pitch) for it to count as scoring before the 3rd out. 

player at the plate is not yet a BR Rule 5.05 (new book), R1 crosses plate before K,  this layman suggests run would count

[spiffdawg7]

2 minutes ago, stkjock said:

player at the plate is not yet a BR, R1 crosses plate before K,  this layman suggests run would count

What if a runner is stealing 2nd and gets to the bag before the pitch is hit foul?  He still would be sent back to first.  The player has to reach the next base before the Time of pitch(the point in the pitchers motion that commits him to pitch) for the advance to count in either situation.

[stkjock]

Just now, spiffdawg7 said:

What if a runner is stealing 2nd and gets to the bag before the pitch is hit foul?  He still would be sent back to first.  The player has to reach the next base before the Time of pitch(the point in the pitchers motion that commits him to pitch) for the advance to count in either situation.

different situation IMO, in your example, the ball is put in play, the foul ball by rule requires runner to return (IIRC).  

[ricka56]

10 minutes ago, stkjock said:

player at the plate is not yet a BR, R1 crosses plate before K,  this layman suggests run would count

B became a BR for the brief period of time between K3 and F2 catching the pitch. 

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, ricka56 said:

B was a BR for the brief period of time between K3 and F2 catching the pitch. 

that logic is beyond me.

 

after reading Rule 5.05 - the Batter never becomes BR - at least to this layman.   

 

I'd like to see what @maven, @lawump and @grayhawk suggest is the correct call

[Rich Ives]

11 minutes ago, stkjock said:

that logic is beyond me.

 

after reading Rule 5.05 - the Batter never becomes BR - at least to this layman.   

 

I'd like to see what @maven, @lawump and @grayhawk suggest is the correct call

6.05(m)  [LL and old OBR numbering]

With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts;

[stkjock]

Just now, Rich Ives said:

6.05(m)  [LL and old OBR numbering]

With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts;

well the ball hitting the runner makes it a different call now does it not?  I don't see the reasoning to post this situation. 

[Mudisfun]

8 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

6.05(m)  [LL and old OBR numbering]

With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts;

Only issue I have with this is that in the OP the pitch never strikes R3. 

 

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, stkjock said:

that logic is beyond me.

It's the FED logic.  The batter becomes a runner on all K3, but is usually out an instant later when the ball is caught.

 

In the OP, no run scores.  All codes.  Really shouldn't be much discussion about it, unless it's just another off-season attempt to find another of the 234 known errors in the rule book, and this one based on some overly-literal reading of some rules (I don't know if it really is one of those errors or not).

[stkjock]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's the FED logic.  The batter becomes a runner on all K3, but is usually out an instant later when the ball is caught.

 

In the OP, no run scores.  All codes.  Really shouldn't be much discussion about it, unless it's just another off-season attempt to find another of the 234 known errors in the rule book, and this one based on some overly-literal reading of some rules (I don't know if it really is one of those errors or not).

It seems the more I learn about FED the less logic there is.

 

So if the batter is a runner in that silly split second, the runner has still crossed the plate before then, so why wouldn't the run score?

 

Let's make the OP a bit outlandish, F1 on the bump, comes set, see's R3 break for home, is frozen like a deer in headlights, R3 slides in safely, well through and past HP,  F1 then delivers the pitch for K3 and 3rd out...... 

Same series of events as the OP, just a bit more time between each step, Run still doesn't score?

[maven]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

In the OP, no run scores.  All codes.  Really shouldn't be much discussion about it, unless it's just another off-season attempt to find another of the 234 known errors in the rule book, and this one based on some overly-literal reading of some rules (I don't know if it really is one of those errors or not).

This.

 

2 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Let's make the OP a bit outlandish, F1 on the bump, comes set, see's R3 break for home, is frozen like a deer in headlights, R3 slides in safely, well through and past HP,  F1 then delivers the pitch for K3 and 3rd out...... 

Same series of events as the OP, just a bit more time between each step, Run still doesn't score?

If R3 scores before F1 begins his motion to pitch, then the run would count. That has never happened, and will never happened, so it's not worth worrying about.

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, stkjock said:

So if the batter is a runner in that silly split second, the runner has still crossed the plate before then, so why wouldn't the run score?

Because the BR was put out for the third out before reaching first.  "How a run scores" 101.

 

The FED logic was probably put there just to solve this problem of some umpire declaring the run to score because the "BR" didn't make the third out the "B" did.

[stkjock]

Just now, noumpere said:

Because the BR was put out for the third out before reaching first.  "How a run scores" 101.

 

The FED logic was probably put there just to solve this problem of some umpire declaring the run to score because the "BR" didn't make the third out the "B" did.

I understand now, thank you, it doesn't make logical sense to me, however, rules often do not follow logic.  Thank you for your patience in explaining.  My lack of understanding that "B" becomes "BR" is what threw me.

16 minutes ago, maven said:

This.

 

If R3 scores before F1 begins his motion to pitch, then the run would count. That has never happened, and will never happened, so it's not worth worrying about.

Thank you.

[Rich Ives]

56 minutes ago, stkjock said:

well the ball hitting the runner makes it a different call now does it not?  

No. It is strike three. No different than any other strike three.

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which—
(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed;
(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike zone;
(c) Is fouled by the batter when he has less than two strikes;
(d) Is bunted foul;
(e) Touches the batter as he strikes at it;
(f) Touches the batter in flight in the strike zone; or
(g) Becomes a foul tip.

 

Are you here to learn or here to argue?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, spiffdawg7 said:

What if a runner is stealing 2nd and gets to the bag before the pitch is hit foul?  He still would be sent back to first.  The player has to reach the next base before the Time of pitch(the point in the pitchers motion that commits him to pitch) for the advance to count in either situation.

 

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

different situation IMO, in your example, the ball is put in play, the foul ball by rule requires runner to return (IIRC).  

It's really not different. Same principle. Only way a runner is getting that next base is if he gets  there prior to the start of the pitching motion.

3-2 count, 2 outs, R1. R1 takes off, gets a great jump gets to 2nd while F1 is delivering the pitch. Batter swings and misses, strike 3. The runner is not getting credit for a SB.

[Mudisfun]

So the determination as to score the run or not is the pitcher beginning the pitching motion and delivering the pitch regardless of where on the track R3 is in relation to passing home. Sound correct?

[maven]

6 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

So the determination as to score the run or not is the pitcher beginning the pitching motion and delivering the pitch regardless of where on the track R3 is in relation to passing home. Sound correct?

No: that's the determination of where a runner is at TOP. If he's on 3B and the batter makes the third out before touching 1B, then no run can score (as usual).

If he has already scored at TOP, then the scoring provisions won't apply to him any more than they would to a runner who scored in the previous inning.

[stkjock]

TOP - defined by when F1 starts his motion?

[spiffdawg7]

15 minutes ago, stkjock said:

TOP - defined by when F1 starts his motion?

When he has made any motion that commits him to pitch.  Just movement where he still could step toward 3rd for a pickoff is not TOP yet. 

[VolUmp]

On 3/9/2016 at 10:21 AM, Rich Ives said:

Are you here to learn or here to argue?

 

Stkjock, welcome to the condescending world of Rich Ives, who doesn't umpire, but he shows his rattiness even with his fingertips.

You were not arguing, you were inquiring, and I for one, appreciate your inquiry.

[stkjock]

3 hours ago, WildFlyer said:

 

Stkjock, welcome to the condescending world of Rich Ives, who doesn't umpire, but he shows his rattiness even with his fingertips.

You were not arguing, you were inquiring, and I for one, appreciate your inquiry.

Thanks, I've been on message boards long enough to not let attitudes of others trouble me, I've also read enough here to get certain personas.

 

im just a youth coach and baseball fan trying to learn.  Appreciate the education the members provide.  

[maven]

51 minutes ago, stkjock said:

im just a youth coach and baseball fan trying to learn.   

And I can assure you that many of us find that attitude refreshing and share the desire to learn.

[stkjock]

Thank you Maven.