Rule quiz

[jpperez14]

Next question:

R2 and R3, 1 out. 

Batter hits a pop fly in the infield, F4 and F6 go to get the ball, both call the ball then back off to let the other guy catch it. (Nobody catches it, both fielders move back away from 2nd) Ball comes down and hits R2 helmet while standing on 2nd. Ball then shoots off to the outfield and R3 scores, R2 advances to 3rd.

What do you have?

[noumpere]

R2 out for being hit by a batted ball.  BR to first.  R3 returns to third.

 

When you first started, I thought you were going to have the "triple play with no defender touching the ball" play.

[James88]

Okay I'm a little confused.  So in scenario (a), even if the first baseman fights through the interference and makes the catch in foul territory, the batter would return to bat?

I realize there would be a dead ball due to the interference and R1 is out, but I thought the batter would be out because the umpire would have ruled a double play was prevented?

If you don't mind, set me straight and also let me know if it would be different between OBR and NFHS.  Thanks. 

[noumpere]

 

Same rule.

[Mizzou2016]

Same rule.

The idea, essentially, is that on a infield fly the batter is immediately out (as soon as the status of F/F is determined). On interference, the runner is out and the ball is dead immediately. If the fly ball is not fair, it's not an infield fly, so the ball is dead before the catch is made.

[Richvee]

 

 

When you first started, I thought you were going to have the "triple play with no defender touching the ball" play.

My favorite TWP of them all.

[James88]

The idea, essentially, is that on a infield fly the batter is immediately out (as soon as the status of

F/F

is determined). On interference, the runner is out and the ball is dead immediately. If the fly ball is not fair, it's not an infield fly, so the ball is dead before the catch is made.

Thanks for the reply and that's what I thought was the logic behind that ruling.  I was definitely confused though.

Thanks

[Mizzou2016]

Ok unravel this hypothetical batting out of order. Score keepers are asleep, I guess..

Top of 2nd, 2 out, R1. FED rules. B6 due up in the order.

Unreported sub (S7) comes to bat, takes a pitch, and R1 is picked off. Inning over.

Bottom of 2nd, the unreported sub takes the place of B7. B6 remains in the game.

Bottom of 2nd, still no appeal. Top of the third, B6 comes to bat, and gets a base hit. NOW the defense appeals.

Got anything?

What if S7 came back to complete his at bat?

[jpperez14]

Ok unravel this hypothetical batting out of order. Score keepers are asleep, I guess..

Top of 2nd, 2 out, R1. FED rules. B6 due up in the order.

Unreported sub (S7) comes to bat, takes a pitch, and R1 is picked off. Inning over.

Bottom of 2nd, the unreported sub takes the place of B7. B6 remains in the game.

Bottom of 2nd, still no appeal. Top of the third, B6 comes to bat, and gets a base hit. NOW the defense appeals.

Got anything?

What if S7 came back to complete his at bat?

i am not 100% on yhis, but once S7 comes to bat he has became that sub for B6. Since he went in the field for B7, B6 is an illegal, but becomes legal once he took the fiekld for the bottom half. Whenthe defense appeals that B6 is incorrect, it would be correct since B6 was originally up when the previous inning ended. So ive got noyhing on the appeal. 

had S7 came up instead of B6 and completed his at bat then i would rule batting out of order, B6 is out, B7 is up to bat...

how does that sound? please be gentle if i am wrong.

[maven]

There's no BOO/MYTAB here.

B6 is up. When S7 enters and bats for him, he's in B6's lineup spot. Fine.

When S7 takes the field for B7, that's an illegal substitution. S7 is now an illegal sub, and retains that status whether on offense or defense.

When B6 comes to bat, he's in the proper spot: their previous half inning ended during his spot's time at bat. He has used his re-entry to return to the plate in the next inning, which is perfectly legal.

When anyone notices that S7 is an illegal sub, he should be restricted to the dugout for the rest of the game. If at bat or on base at the time, he'd be out, too.

 

[Richvee]

Ok unravel this hypothetical batting out of order. Score keepers are asleep, I guess..

Top of 2nd, 2 out, R1. FED rules. B6 due up in the order.

Unreported sub (S7) comes to bat, takes a pitch, and R1 is picked off. Inning over.

Bottom of 2nd, the unreported sub takes the place of B7. B6 remains in the game.

Bottom of 2nd, still no appeal. Top of the third, B6 comes to bat, and gets a base hit. NOW the defense appeals.

Got anything?

What if S7 came back to complete his at bat?

This is a knotty situation indeed. I think once a pitch is thrown to unreported sub S7, he has officially entered the game a sub for B6. When B6 takes the field, and S7 is also in the field, B6 becomes the illegal sub since he can only re enter in the same spot in the batting order, which he occupies with S7 due to his pinch hitting appearance. When B6 comes to bat in the 3rd and it's appealed,  he's out and restricted to the bench. 

If S7 comes up to start the 3rd inning, that would be correct. He entered as a pinch hitter for B6.

In either scenario, I have no idea who should come up in the 7th spot?? 

[maven]

This is a knotty situation indeed. I think once a pitch is thrown to unreported sub S7, he has officially entered the game a sub for B6. When B6 takes the field, and S7 is also in the field, B6 becomes the illegal sub since he can only re enter in the same spot in the batting order, which he occupies with S7 due to his pinch hitting appearance. When B6 comes to bat in the 3rd and it's appealed,  he's out and restricted to the bench. 

If S7 comes up to start the 3rd inning, that would be correct. He entered as a pinch hitter for B6.

In either scenario, I have no idea who should come up in the 7th spot?? 

Rich, that's not how we should handle this. When B6 re-enters, I'm giving priority to a starter re-entering a game. Obviously, the team intended S7 to replace B7, since B7 doesn't return to the field. Since S7 already has a spot in the lineup, and it's not B7's spot, that makes S7 the illegal sub. 

To reach the same conclusion another way: when I have to restrict someone to the dugout, I want it to be a sub, not a starter. Not only is that choice supportable (I would say, preferable) by rule, it allows a greater chance of keeping the head coach in the game.

[Mizzou2016]

There's no BOO/MYTAB here.

B6 is up. When S7 enters and bats for him, he's in B6's lineup spot. Fine.

When S7 takes the field for B7, that's an illegal substitution. S7 is now an illegal sub, and retains that status whether on offense or defense.

When B6 comes to bat, he's in the proper spot: their previous half inning ended during his spot's time at bat. He has used his re-entry to return to the plate in the next inning, which is perfectly legal.

When anyone notices that S7 is an illegal sub, he should be restricted to the dugout for the rest of the game. If at bat or on base at the time, he'd be out, too.

 

I wish I could say I was trying to pose a trick question, but I honestly didn't know what the ruling would be.

I would agree with the above. S7 is a legal unreported sub for B6 in the top of the 2nd.

In the bottom of the second, B6 is using his legal re-entry. S7 is now an illegal sub.

[Richvee]

Rich, that's not how we should handle this. When B6 re-enters, I'm giving priority to a starter re-entering a game. Obviously, the team intended S7 to replace B7, since B7 doesn't return to the field. Since S7 already has a spot in the lineup, and it's not B7's spot, that makes S7 the illegal sub. 

To reach the same conclusion another way: when I have to restrict someone to the dugout, I want it to be a sub, not a starter. Not only is that choice supportable (I would say, preferable) by rule, it allows a greater chance of keeping the head coach in the game.

I can see your logic. But ..

1. Should intent play into our ruling? If they intended to or not, they pinch hit for F6.

2. I've got a little problem calling S7 an illegal sub for taking the field when he entered the 1/2 inning before as a PH.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Richvee

[maven]

I can see your logic. But ..

1. Should intent play into our ruling? If they intended to or not, they pinch hit for F6.

2. I've got a little problem calling S7 an illegal sub for taking the field when he entered the 1/2 inning before as a PH.

He was legal when batting for B6. He became illegal when he and B6 took the field together.

[Richvee]

He was legal when batting for B6. He became illegal when he and B6 took the field together.

There's my issue. How can someone legally in the game become illegal. B6 was pinch hit for. Then re entered illegally for B7.   

[jpperez14]

So, the coach failed to announce S7 is pinch hitting for B7. 

We assume as the umpires for this, S7 is pinch hitting for B6, due to B6 being up to bat.

He now becomes the substitution due to stepping in the batters box.

So, B6 is scratched. After the inning, B6 re-enters, making S7 illegal.

When you return to the top of 3, B6 is the correct batter, on appeal, you have nothing.

If the Coach brings it up before S7 hits, then you would need the offensive Coach know he needs to Sub B7 or the original B7 re-enters.

The issue will come up with the next batter, after S7 hits, the defensive appeals, S7 is out and removed from the game and all R1 (b6) would return to base at the time of pitch. The coach would need to insert a sub for B7, or re-enter original B7, then you would start with B8, R1, and 1 out.

If S7 hits comes to bat at the top of the 3rd, on appeal, S7 is out of the game and restricted. B6  is called out for batting out of order and B7, sub or re-enter B7, would be up w/ 1 out and no one on.

I dont believe that B7 being replaced with an illegal sub prevents him from being able to re-enter, that is why I mention the original re-entering.

 

 

I believe if the OC argues that S7 was suppose to be for B7, we should acknowledge we were not informed that way resulting in S7 being a sub for B6. 

The coaches error cost him a sub, (or player if he was suppose to inform the pinch hitting) also had he announced S7 was hitting for B7, he would of possibly caught that they were out of order.

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by jpperez14
b6 should be called out for not batting in proper order, s7 removed from game.

[noumpere]

Two possibilities:

 

Either B6 "reentered" for S6, and S6 "re-entered" for B7, making S6 the illegal sub.

-or-

S6 stays in for B6 and B6 "reenters" for B7, making B6 the illegal sub.

 

SInce it's all unannounced, there's no way to tell which is "right" so the umpire gets to choose.  I'm going with option B and enforcing the rules from there.

[grayhawk]

So a catcher can deliberately cause CI to avoid allowing the balk to be superseded by a hit? No.

Just because an incident results in a delayed dead ball does not mean that what happens after that doesn't occur. You enforce in the order they occurred. The play results in the enforcement of the balk in this case, and because the penalty for the balk does not meet the criteria for ignoring the CI penalty, then the offense has the choice of the play or the penalty.

Was reading MiLBUM tonight about a different question and came across this.  The offense doesn't have the option.

 

[Replacematt]

There we go. Thanks.

[noumpere]

That matches my understanding. 

 

What year MLBUM do you have?  I don't recall that being in mine (but I don't have it handy to check)

 

And, this points out the benefit of the "paper" books vs. the "electronic" books.  If you had (only) the latter, you'd just do a search for the other topic you wanted and more than likely not find the answer to this pending question.

[grayhawk]

That matches my understanding. 

 

What year MLBUM do you have?  I don't recall that being in mine (but I don't have it handy to check)

 

And, this points out the benefit of the "paper" books vs. the "electronic" books.  If you had (only) the latter, you'd just do a search for the other topic you wanted and more than likely not find the answer to this pending question.

It's the 2015 MiLBUM. I find it more comprehensive than the MLBUM.

[maineump]

Enforce the balk - batter runner advanced 1 base, but R3 didn't. CI is secondary. Now if R3 scores on this play - everything stands R3 scores and BR out at 2B.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Next question: Batter hits a line drive to the RF corner, F9 throws his glove at the ball to stop it. Battery-runner continues running, and is thrown out at home.

Out? Or place the runner at third?

Not enough info here.. When RF touched the ball with his glove where was the BR? if before 1st then the out stands, if after 1st awarded home. 3 bases time of touch. Live ball.

[Haid D' Salaami]

A headache.

 

Since the conditions don't exist to disregard either the balk or the CI, I would enforce the balk since it happened first.  Send R3 home and bring the batter back to bat with the count he had prior to the balk.

ding ding ding.. we have a winner Jim