Game management keeps HC in game - thanks!

[webspinnre]

Had a play last night at the plate (see rules discussion here). HTHC is livid and comes running out. However, thanks to the time I've spent on UE this season, reading about game management and dealing with managers, I was able to calm him down, and while we made it to the warn stage, we managed to avoid getting to the eject stage. I'm confident had I not managed this well he would've ended up making it all the way to ejection. Thanks to everyone for the valuable resources and discussions of game management here. (My third base umpire also did a great job of wrangling)

[ElkOil]

Glad it worked out!  I picked up a tip from someone on here a while back that works great.  When the coach comes out, simply ask, "What did you see, coach?"  I've found that they usually respond pretty well when they find you're interested in their opinion right off the bat, instead of entering into the conversation insisting you're right.  It shows you're open-minded and willing to listen.  So far, using this method, I've had every incident de-escalate and I've never yet had an argument get drawn out or carry over into other things.

Good for you!

[maven]

When the coach comes out, simply ask, "What did you see, coach?"  I've found that they usually respond pretty well when they find you're interested in their opinion right off the bat, instead of entering into the conversation insisting you're right.

I'm seldom interested in his opinion; having him talk first gives him what he wants (a minute to vent) and me a few moments to boil down my explanation to 5 words or so.

A local HS coach tries to turn this tactic around. I was on the bases and had his F3 go up to catch a bad throw. He came back down off the base and the BR touched before he could find it. I signaled "safe," and then "off the bag."

That coach came out and asked me what I saw.

[MadMax]

I'm seldom interested in his opinion; having him talk first gives him what he wants (a minute to vent) and me a few moments to boil down my explanation to 5 words or so.

That coach came out and asked me what I saw.

Yes, @maven, but did you run him?

Far too often (it seems), we have fellow umpires who take "a venting" by a coach as a challenge to their authority and lack the "mental/verbal judo" skills to effectively "spar" with a disgruntled coach. You (the umpire, not you specifically Maven) are in a more effective and advantageous position when you let the sparring opponent put his "cards on the table" first.

Very well done @webspinnre, I commend you. You are sure to have many more "rescuings" in the future.

[UmpJeff]

When the coach comes out, simply ask, "What did you see, coach?"  I've found that they usually respond pretty well when they find you're interested in their opinion right off the bat,

With all due respect, ElkOil, I will NEVER ask a coach what he saw. Like Maven said, it doesn't matter what he saw and asking him what he saw is only going to tell you what you already know...he saw it entirely differently than you.  That's why he's out there.  Now, letting him vent for a minute or two (while you're doing nothing but listening) will normally calm the situation. 

But, giving him the opportunity to further contest your call by asking him what he saw is going to do nothing but escalate the situation, IMHO, because he's going to think that by you asking him, he's right.  What coaches see doesn't matter to me or my partner(s).  

[scrounge]

With all due respect, ElkOil, I will NEVER ask a coach what he saw. Like Maven said, it doesn't matter what he saw and asking him what he saw is only going to tell you what you already know...he saw it entirely differently than you.  That's why he's out there.  Now, letting him vent for a minute or two (while you're doing nothing but listening) will normally calm the situation. 

But, giving him the opportunity to further contest your call by asking him what he saw is going to do nothing but escalate the situation, IMHO, because he's going to think that by you asking him, he's right.  What coaches see doesn't matter to me or my partner(s).  

I think in some cases it's a useful tactic, but not a blanket tool to be used all the time. As Maven said, it's really a way of directing the conversation and getting him to vent. Once you say "I understand, but I saw xxx" what's he gonna say? He can rant that I'm wrong - fine as long as we don't get close to the line, and we'll have a quick stop sign if it does - but he got his POV across, I got my explanation across, and we're done. Anything further is just moving us closer to the line - where other tools and tactics will be used.

[maven]

Yes, @maven, but did you run him?

Far too often (it seems), we have fellow umpires who take "a venting" by a coach as a challenge to their authority and lack the "mental/verbal judo" skills to effectively "spar" with a disgruntled coach. You (the umpire, not you specifically Maven) are in a more effective and advantageous position when you let the sparring opponent put his "cards on the table" first.

No, I haven't ejected a HS coach in years (last I recall was a coach hollering "BS!" — and not just the letters). That particular coach thinks I'm terrible, but from what I've determined he thinks that of every umpire. Like most coaches of quality programs around here, he knows where the line is.

I agree with the rest of this post: for some guys, it doesn't seem to be enough that they get to determine the "right" call. They have to try to get everyone to agree with them.

With all due respect, ElkOil, I will NEVER ask a coach what he saw. Like Maven said, it doesn't matter what he saw and asking him what he saw is only going to tell you what you already know...he saw it entirely differently than you.  That's why he's out there.  Now, letting him vent for a minute or two (while you're doing nothing but listening) will normally calm the situation. 

I do ask him what he saw: perhaps we saw the same thing, and he just has the rule wrong. Ruling = rule + judgment, and if we can locate the point of disagreement we can focus the discussion on that rather than ranting.

Many coaches I see know that I help train umpires, and they defer to me about the rules. If not, I just draw the line: this is the rule, and we're going with that today. For HS ball, that's it, no protests allowed; in tournaments, they can protest if they want. He doesn't have to agree with me about the rule. Now we play ball.

For judgment, if we saw it differently, I'll say that: "Coach, I saw it differently, and I have to go with what I saw." I'm not saying he's wrong, just that I saw it differently. He doesn't have to agree with me about judgment. Now we play ball.

Guys get going with verbal judo and whatnot: OK, at some levels you're going to need that (esp. pro ball). I will listen to a coach who is not yelling, and I will answer his questions — once, and we don't go fishing. I don't try to get all tricksy about it. The sooner we get back to baseball, the sooner he has something else to do and think about.

[ElkOil]

Let's not discount the potential value of a coach's perspective.  Believe me, I know that's a loaded statement.  But hear me out...

Let's say you pooch a call but the coach has a legit angle and sees the proper result.  Not being open to what he saw puts us -- and the game -- at a disadvantage.  We all want to get the call right and the coach -- being the only other person besides our partner who can offer another opinion -- may just have something we need to reverse a bad call.  On the other hand, if I'm sure I've called it right, the discussion is going to end pretty quickly.

[maven]

Let's not discount the potential value of a coach's perspective.  Believe me, I know that's a loaded statement.  But hear me out...

Let's say you pooch a call but the coach has a legit angle and sees the proper result.  Not being open to what he saw puts us -- and the game -- at a disadvantage.  We all want to get the call right and the coach -- being the only other person besides our partner who can offer another opinion -- may just have something we need to reverse a bad call.  On the other hand, if I'm sure I've called it right, the discussion is going to end pretty quickly.

If I have a RULE wrong and coach asks us to discuss it as a crew, yes, we can right that wrong.

If coach has a different angle according to which, in his JUDGMENT, that high tag was NOT in time, well too bad. If we start changing our judgment calls based on coach or player info, we might as well not be there (and that's a recipe for disastrous game management, and a lot of shouting).

[ElkOil]

If I have a RULE wrong and coach asks us to discuss it as a crew, yes, we can right that wrong.

If coach has a different angle according to which, in his JUDGMENT, that high tag was NOT in time, well too bad. If we start changing our judgment calls based on coach or player info, we might as well not be there (and that's a recipe for disastrous game management, and a lot of shouting).

I'm hip.

[stl_ump]

On 7/15/2015 at 9:01 AM, UmpJeff said:

With all due respect, ElkOil, I will NEVER ask a coach what he saw. Like Maven said, it doesn't matter what he saw and asking him what he saw is only going to tell you what you already know...he saw it entirely differently than you.  That's why he's out there.  Now, letting him vent for a minute or two (while you're doing nothing but listening) will normally calm the situation. 

But, giving him the opportunity to further contest your call by asking him what he saw is going to do nothing but escalate the situation, IMHO, because he's going to think that by you asking him, he's right.  What coaches see doesn't matter to me or my partner(s).  

I don't do high level games (College or Varsity H.S.) Just your typical Rec ball / Select / Travel team games.  One of our umpires that started out in our association several years ago is now up to AAA ball and and I asked him how he handles coaches that come out with an "issue.  And that's the tactic he said he used.  "Coach, what do you have?"

Not that this is a one size solution for everyone but if it works for him, I'll go with it until I get something better.

[MPLSMatt]

I guess I simply don't understand how the "coach, what do you have?" works when really, I don't care too much about what he has, especially on a judgement call.   It's placating and really the only thing that can come of it is "well, that's not what I had, Bill." Clearly it works for some, but I can't figure out how it doesn't end in me saying "what did you see?," "well that's wrong" (not literally of course) but you have to say some version of it if you aren't going to change your call. 

Also, on the original post, how did your partner have to wrangle the coach who's arguing with you and it didn't equal an ejection?  I'm not too sure that I'd keep a guy around if my partner had to wrangle him - unless I am misunderstanding what happened.  And he did charge at you, which some say should be an EJ before he even gets there.  All EJs are HTBT and I think that too many hard and fast rules gets people into trouble, so I'm not saying you are wrong - just curious to know more and some food for thought.  That said, I 100% agree with the post's thesis - UE has absolutely improved my game management 1,000 times over and is a huge part of the reason that I have very few problems and even less ejections.  

[ZebraStripes]

I'm seldom interested in his opinion; having him talk first gives him what he wants (a minute to vent) and me a few moments to boil down my explanation to 5 words or so.

A local HS coach tries to turn this tactic around. I was on the bases and had his F3 go up to catch a bad throw. He came back down off the base and the BR touched before he could find it. I signaled "safe," and then "off the bag."

That coach came out and asked me what I saw.

You don't have to actually be interested.  Just look like you are listening.  

[kylehutson]

UE has absolutely improved my game management 1,000 times over and is a huge part of the reason that I have very few problems and even less ejections.  

I'm going to have a slightly different take.

UE has absolutely improved my game management (maybe not 1000 times over, but certainly significantly), but I've had *more* ejections, because I've looked back at previous years and realized all the times I should have ejected, but didn't because I saw that as a sign that I was doing a bad job (that and I've had 2-3 more games this year than in any year previous).

I'm still trying to get better at game management, and even read "Verbal Judo" a couple of weeks ago after seeing it mentioned positively here.

[ElkOil]

I'm going to have a slightly different take.

UE has absolutely improved my game management (maybe not 1000 times over, but certainly significantly), but I've had *more* ejections, because I've looked back at previous years and realized all the times I should have ejected, but didn't because I saw that as a sign that I was doing a bad job (that and I've had 2-3 more games this year than in any year previous).

I'm still trying to get better at game management, and even read "Verbal Judo" a couple of weeks ago after seeing it mentioned positively here.

It's an effort for me, too.  Last weekend a coach didn't like my zone, and I did kick a call.  He told me.  I took the heat and said it was my bad.  Next inning, he vocalized another complaint and said, "Now it's not fair."  

I took my mask off, turned to him and said, "I heard you the first time, Jim.  This is your warning."  Bud = Nipped.  Not another word.  The old me wouldn't have said anything and let it get worse.

I absolutely have gotten better because of this forum and the folks on it.

[BillKen]

We are better together than by ourselves.  UE is an investment of time that makes us all better.  Sometimes that comes in the form of sage advice from guys like Maven, grayhawk, JaxRolo, etc....and sometimes it comes from filtering out bad answers.  I don't think my UE time is ever wasted time!

[webspinnre]

Also, on the original post, how did your partner have to wrangle the coach who's arguing with you and it didn't equal an ejection?  I'm not too sure that I'd keep a guy around if my partner had to wrangle him - unless I am misunderstanding what happened.  And he did charge at you, which some say should be an EJ before he even gets there.  All EJs are HTBT and I think that too many hard and fast rules gets people into trouble, so I'm not saying you are wrong - just curious to know more and some food for thought.  That said, I 100% agree with the post's thesis - UE has absolutely improved my game management 1,000 times over and is a huge part of the reason that I have very few problems and even less ejections.  

I wouldn't say he charged at me, just that he yells time and comes running out. While not good, that's not an ejectable offense. When I mention wrangling, I probably should've been more specific. This was after we'd discussed it, and he'd starting walking off, partially followed by the 3rd base umpire, who, when he decided he wanted to discuss it some more, was able to usher him back to his dugout.

The reason I allowed the discussion was because I was able to calm him down, and so while he was upset, he was able to carry on a conversation, and the conversation wasn't about a judgment call, but about rules. I was explaining to him that his understanding of the rules was incorrect as he wanted to protest on the basis of rules that we weren't using (though as it turns out, apparently the rule I was using was misinterpreted by me, though noone else present seemed to have known that). In the good news, there were no further issues with him, and he was even able to pull out the win, so my apparent misinterpretation didn't cost him the game.

In any case, the point of the post was to say thank you to the UE community for helping me to become a better umpire.

Edited July 16, 2015 by webspinnre

[jlutgen0]

On 7/15/2015 at 2:41 PM, MPLSMatt said:

I guess I simply don't understand how the "coach, what do you have?" works when really, I don't care too much about what he has, especially on a judgement call.   It's placating and really the only thing that can come of it is "well, that's not what I had, Bill." Clearly it works for some, but I can't figure out how it doesn't end in me saying "what did you see?," "well that's wrong" (not literally of course) but you have to say some version of it if you aren't going to change your call. 

Also, on the original post, how did your partner have to wrangle the coach who's arguing with you and it didn't equal an ejection?  I'm not too sure that I'd keep a guy around if my partner had to wrangle him - unless I am misunderstanding what happened.  And he did charge at you, which some say should be an EJ before he even gets there.  All EJs are HTBT and I think that too many hard and fast rules gets people into trouble, so I'm not saying you are wrong - just curious to know more and some food for thought.  That said, I 100% agree with the post's thesis - UE has absolutely improved my game management 1,000 times over and is a huge part of the reason that I have very few problems and even less ejections.  

What I was taught for why to begin with "Coach, what do you have" is kind of two fold. First of all, you know exactly what point he disagrees with and can formulate a concise response to that question. Secondly, once his concern has been addressed you can turn to "Bob, this isn't the reason you came out to talk with me. Let's get back to baseball. " That's when you can disengage and retreat to be ready for play, if he follows or continues, then you're onto prolonged argument and can give him a stop sign. 

[Mudisfun]

On 7/15/2015 at 3:00 PM, ElkOil said:

It's an effort for me, too.  Last weekend a coach didn't like my zone, and I did kick a call.  He told me.  I took the heat and said it was my bad.  Next inning, he vocalized another complaint and said, "Now it's not fair."  

 

I was with you until the 'now it's not fair' part. Now the coach is accusing you of cheating and at a minimum I am restricting but most likely he is going to the parking lot. My integrity means more to me than having to spend 15 minutes on an EJ report.

Game last week... first pitch screamer down the 3rd base line for a double. Coach comes out and I ask what does he need/want? He states that from his position in the 1st base dugout that looked foul... Coach we have a different angle and I have the ball bounding over the bag since I was directly looking down the line. Back to the dugout he went... How can he argue? OK coach, you think it is foul and I think it is fair... I bet the other coach thinks it is fair so 2 votes to 1?

The point was I 'knew' what he wanted but what if he wanted to make an appeal that the B/R missed 1st but I started in on the ball was fair? Nothing wrong asking why they are coming out even if you think you know. I have no problem letting the coach speak and then reply. If there is no rule question then the conversation needs to end after I explain what I saw since we are just going to go round and round about judgement. 

[udbrky]

You can follow it up with a little Charlie Harper.

 

"I understand."