No Clue Partners

[tankmjg24]

Alright guys, trying to get some insight on how everyone would have handled a situation in which I encountered the other night.  The 12U end of season tournament is going on currently and the league has opted to use mixed 3 man crews.  I am on the plate for game 1 and U3 for game 2.  Upon the start of game 2 I notice that there are 4 coaches in the first base dugout, and the manager at the plate conference.  By rule, a team can only have 3 adult coaches in the dugout.  I do not think much about it as I figure U2 will remind the manager of this rule.  The game begins and all 5 coaches are still in the dugout.  In the half inning I meet U2 and remind him of the rule.  He responds by stating that this is not our responsibility to enforce, but an administrative issue that is the tournament directors problem.  I try to convince him that he is wrong but he will not listen to me.  In the next half inning I see U2 run down and talk to U1 briefly, U2 then comes over to me and states that he asked U1 and U1 agrees that we are not responsible for this.  I was not sure of how to handle the situation as the first base dugout is not necessarily my turf as U3.  I thought to just go kick the other 2 out myself, but I did not want to seem like a bully going all the way across the field to do this.  There is also the fact that the other two umpires could have cared less.  I opted to do nothing and talk to the director (whom I know well) at the conclusion of the game about how he needs to remind all the umpires that we are responsible for all rule enforcements.  Thoughts?   

[blue23ll]

Not my circus, not my monkees. Until they become an issue, then deal with it. 

[krwill96]

Not sure if it was little league or some of other small field league but I'm not familiar with little league rules and protocol, but I would have enforced it even though you're the third base umpire. If you saw them have an ondeck batter (and rules didn't allow them) would you have said something? Why is this any different? I think I would have said something to the third base coach (typically the head coach) about the number of coaches. This way you're not "going across the field" to take care of the situation. Yes the other umpires should have a took control but I think this isn't one of those things that is limited to one specific umpire.  

[jpperez14]

why weren't you at the plate meeting before the game? Usually everyone goes to the plate conferences, you could of mentioned it there and killed it before it began? I always ask my partners if they have anything to add when I am done, if not we go on.

[ricka56]

OOO and then talking to the director to have him admonish your partners, puts you outside their circle of trust.

Edited June 4, 2015 by ricka56

[WIUMP]

What difference does it make to the playing and officiating of the game? Unless specifically directed in the rules for that league/tourney, I'd leave it alone. 

[tankmjg24]

I was at the plate meeting.  This was at the very end as we were concluding the meeting that I noticed the additional coaches within the dugout.  It is our job as the umpires to enforce all of the rules and not just the ones that we choose to play by.  Enforcing the number of coaches is not OOO but doing your job.  The director agreed with this when I talked with him.  If you do not enforce this rule, what other rules are you going to decide to ignore.  I like the idea of talking to the third base coach and casually reminding him about the 3 coaches.  In this game the manager stayed in the dugout (older guy that seemed to be the brains behind the operation while his younger assistants did most of the work), but reminding the coach still might have corrected the problem.  Say what you want to, but this is a rule I feel should always be enforced.  Now getting out a tape measure and sizing up little Johnnie's glove is OOO, but enforcing the number of coaches in the dugout is not in my opinion.

[ElkOil]

This is a clear cut example of using the rules to cause a problem.  There's nothing for you to do here.

[Forest Ump]

Hey Kid....You just received some great advice from some seasoned umpires. Heed it. Umpire with the rule book, not by the rule book. .....and never throw your partners under the bus.....never.

[Rich Ives]

So you're doing a LL game and the other manager comes to you and notes the rule. What then? It's actually a playing rule. 3.17.

[tankmjg24]

I feel as if you might upset a team in the short term, but it will pay off in the long run by enforcing the rule.  I do not make the rules, I just enforce what is given to me.  I do high school ball as well and feel that the balk rule is dumb.  I think that if the pitcher blows through a set and the batter hits a homerun, that the homerun should stand instead of the runner getting to advance one base.  What is everyone's thoughts on me just ignoring this rule and going with the result of the play?  I agree that you umpire with the book and not by the book, but what we are interpreting as with and by is much different.  I have no intentions of measuring each glove, or measuring the numbers on uniform, etc.  As Rich points out, what are you all that are saying ignore this going to do when the opposing coach brings it to your attention?  Plus, those of you that say ignore it are setting your fellow umpires up, as the first umpire to enforce it is going to get the "Well they let us do it yesterday" comment.  Finally, I did not throw any of my fellow umpires under the bus.  I simply confirmed what I thought was correct with the appropriate source.   

[ricka56]

So you're doing a LL game and the other manager comes to you and notes the rule. What then? It's actually a playing rule. 3.17.

​Here is what I would say..."So, are you protesting the game ?"

If yes, deal with it...whatever it takes to resolve the issue...and that coach is on the shortest of short leashes.
If no, then get your fat arse back in the dugout... and that coach is on the shortest of short leashes.

I hate when an AH coach tries to turn you into an OOO. Then regrets that direction he took when he sees what a REAL OOO can do...to him.

[Rich Ives]

​Here is what I would say..."So, are you protesting the game ?"

If yes, deal with it...whatever it takes to resolve the issue...and that coach is on the shortest of short leashes.
If no, then get your fat arse back in the dugout... and that coach is on the shortest of short leashes.

I hate when an AH coach tries to turn you into an OOO. Then regrets that direction he took when he sees what a REAL OOO can do...to him.

​There's nothing to protest unless you rule incorrectly. Or refuse to rule too I suppose.

Would you enforce the no on deck batter rule or just ask me to protest?

[ricka56]

There's nothing to protest unless you rule incorrectly. Or refuse to rule too I suppose. I ain't doin jack...its your move

 

Would you enforce the no on deck batter rule or just ask me to protest? Are you really going to compare a safety rule with this "only a DB coach would bring up" rule ?

A coach that would bring this up is only trying to piss his opponents off and get in their heads. If he thinks I'm going to do his bidding, he's bargaining for more than he'll want to pay..

[scrounge]

If no one cares, then no one cares...and I'm not going to spring butt to OOO this one. But if an opposing coach asks, then absolutely I'm going to the other dugout and telling them to get a dude out of there.

"Hey, they have one too many coaches"

"Oh, yea, didn't notice, I'll take care of it".

Nothing to be angry about or give him a short leash - he's right. It's about 47th on my top 20 things to look out for, but this isn't a hill worth dying on - either in looking to enforce or stubbornly not when pointed out. Let's play baseball.

[BillKen]

It isn't selective rule enforcement if you don't notice how many coaches are in the dugout.  If they are in there helping kids, that is what we want them to do.  If they are in there and they "get" your attention...then you just happened to notice them and can now enforce the rules.  You'll go a lot farther in this business if you keep your head out of the dugout for the most part.  NOTHING good comes from the dugout most of the time.  You may have heard someone say that you need to practice your mechanics in front of a mirror and that is a good technique to learn and polish those signals.  But another very important skill to develop is to discern what is worth seeing and what is not.  If you don't see something, then you don't have to enforce it.  There are a lot of rules in the book and you'll never be good enough to enforce them all.  And if you do, you are going to be hated by coaches, players, and your partners.  Relax...have some fun...be a good arbiter and make the game fair...and if you are lucky, you might make a little extra money along the way.  But I don't think I would want to be the guy who goes and runs volunteer coaches out of the dugout if they are helping kids.  You sure don't want to be the guy that runs and tells the commish on your partners.  A part time job at Wal-Mart might be more profitable and enjoyable.

[noumpere]

So you're doing a LL game and the other manager comes to you and notes the rule. What then? It's actually a playing rule. 3.17.

​"Oh -- let's get Bill over here and discuss it."

 

"Bill -- can you come out here for a minute."

 

Bill -- Joe notices that you have an extra coach.  Can  you take care of that for me?"

 

And, honestly, it's a fine line in the OP.  I sympathize with his plight, but I wouldn't title the thread "no clue partners"

[renegadewolf]

This seems like one of those rules that the onus is on the opposing team to be aware of before enforcing....  like an appeal, or a pitcher using a glove with white panels, it's up to the other  team to recognize the situation I'm not saying word one until I hear a complaint from the coach and only then will I do something about it.

[TheRockawayKid]

You've read the forums here. Seriously, I'm disappointed that a thread about "no clue partners" is merely about how many adults they'll let hang out in the dugout. 

[ricka56]

​"Oh -- let's get Bill over here and discuss it."
"Bill -- can you come out here for a minute."
Bill -- Joe notices that you have an extra coach.  Can  you take care of that for me?"

​I like this... point out the rat coach holding the gasoline can...that might get interesting.

[Forest Ump]

​I like this... point out the rat coach holding the gasoline can...that might get interesting.

​Exactly.

[tankmjg24]

Obviously Little League feels that this is an important point or they would not have put it within their rules.  I find it entertaining that instead of just enforcing the rule some of you all are wanting to call the coach out to the opposing coach.  He is not being a rat coach for pointing out an obvious rule.  Personally, I never let it get to this point as I point it out prior to the game.  If a coach gets mad at me over this then so be it, it is not my fault, he is the one violating the rule. 

[maven]

Obviously Little League feels that this is an important point or they would not have put it within their rules.  I find it entertaining that instead of just enforcing the rule some of you all are wanting to call the coach out to the opposing coach.  He is not being a rat coach for pointing out an obvious rule.  Personally, I never let it get to this point as I point it out prior to the game.  If a coach gets mad at me over this then so be it, it is not my fault, he is the one violating the rule. 

​This is a LL thing, so I should have nothing to say here, but I will anyway.

You claim that, "he's not being a rat coach for pointing out an obvious rule [violation]." Sure he is: what possible advantage is conferred by having a couple extra daddies in the dugout? C'mon, that's classic ratassery.

If coach points out that a player is using illegal equipment, or makes a (FED) dead ball appeal, or appeals batting out of order, or otherwise points up a rule violation relevant to the actual game, then I'll take care of that without involving the other coach.

But if he wants me to stick my nose in the other dugout to get rid of some extra daddies, he can come along for the ride.

[noumpere]

It's very possible this is a "when in rome" thing.  For example, here, during state tournaments, in basketball and baseball, the state wants us to enforce the limits on total numbers on the bench.

 

So, maybe the OP is used to that.  Maybe the tournament / other umpires were not.

 

But, if the tournament director wanted it enforced, he should make that clear to the umpires AND to the teams before the tournament.

[Majordave]

My hats off to you guys who work Little League but this thread is another reason to add to my list of reasons not to work Little League or any other 60'/70'/small diamond baseball.  They just don't pay enough.  I wouldn't willingly/volunteer to work that level for $100 a game.  Too much aggravation.

I am too old for that kind of crap.  From coaches, fans, parents, other umpire partners.  

 

In the words of the great Austin Powers, "That sort of thing's not my bag, baby!