3rd to first (6.2.4 Sit C.)

[Dean]

Ok,  so I was doing a Fed game and my base umpire balks this - and insist that it as a rules change and a point of emphasis last year. I am like, no it isn't/wasn't. . He also tells me they took away the feint to 3rd completely  .

He won't back down so I cannot correct - coaches are unsure and don't know so no SH*# storm.  Both were good coaches, I emailed them, (the coaches and the smitty),  the case play to make sure they knew the correct rule in the future. 

What could I do?  He made the call and wouldn't listen. now he looks like an idiot. 

[maven]

He made the call and wouldn't listen. now he looks like an idiot. 

​Disagree. He IS an idiot.

You did what you could properly do to fix it.

[Kevin_K]

I think I may rile the hornet's nest here, but it will not be the first time.

As a crew, we stand together on the field. When a partner is wrong on a rule and refuses to listen to the actual rule and/or it interpretation, we stand by the wrong decision in order to show solidarity as a crew. When a partner kicks a call, we stand by it in order to show solidarity as a crew even if we know the wrong call was made.

What makes it OK to e-mail the coaches the rule and interpretation to show that our partner was wrong? WTF?

I hope you had the common sense to at least BCC the coaches. I would have a hard time accepting any assignment with a partner who would blatantly undermine any partner, even if the partner was completely wrong. I would also pray, for your sake, that your partner does not copy your e-mail to anyone else. Your reputation as a quality partner who stands with his crew would be called into question by anyone else who knew what you have done.

I might also be wary of who may or may not look like an idiot or who may or may not be a smitty.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Kevin_K

[ElkOil]

What could you do?  Well, I have a suggestion.  ​You can and should have a discussion with your partner during your post-game or any time afterwards, but you aired him out to dry to the coaches, and that's a cardinal sin.  Following up with coaches after the game is akin to allowing a conversation to spill from the field to the parking lot -- and beyond.  And since you sent it out in an email, to @Kevin_K's point, what happens to it from here is out of your hands and may come back to bite you.  

There are more important things than being right.

[BuckeyeMike]

There are more important things than being right.

​​Truer words have never been spoken.  It (the inherent need to prove you're right) happens on this forum all the time, it happens with our wives and significant others, and it's a human trait that deserves some inflection.  How many arguments/fights develop b/c of this need?    It takes a bigger person to look beyond the immediate gratification of being right, to the detriment of the relationship.    ie....Coach/Umpire, Husband/Wife, Umpire/Umpire, etc. 

We've had discussions about this on here before about the need to be right at all costs and the damage it undoubtedly does to the relationship.

[Dean]

Kevin_K.  I can see where you may be misunderstanding. any discussion on the field was in passing with the other umpire out of ear shot of players.  And not very long. I let him have his ruling and he told the coaches the rule was changed last year, His ruling stood - SO on the field he was backed up.

However, the Coaches deserve to know the rule for the next crew, so they are not in a SH*#storm.  

All the email said was here is the case play on the 3rd to 1st move.  And copied the case play. nothing else was said. I firmly believe that is fair for all parties. (separate emails to the umpire and each separate coach. 

Everyone makes a mistake. So I don't fault the umpire - but like I stated - the coaches and for the umpires them coaches will have the rest of the season, they deserve to have the correct rule knowledge on this play.

Oh, and for the record, had I had the incorrect ruling (highly unlikely )  on any rule reference I would do the same for the very same reason.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Dean
added content

[grayhawk]

It's more appropriate, IMO, to email the case play to your partner and have HIM email it to the coaches. If he won't do it, then you know what kind of person he is and can decide if you want to block him for future games. 

[ElkOil]

Kevin_K.  I can see where you may be misunderstanding. any discussion on the field was in passing with the other umpire out of ear shot of players.  And not very long. I let him have his ruling and he told the coaches the rule was changed last year, His ruling stood - SO on the field he was backed up.

However, the Coaches deserve to know the rule for the next crew, so they are not in a SH*#storm.  

All the email said was here is the case play on the 3rd to 1st move.  And copied the case play. nothing else was said. I firmly believe that is fair for all parties. (separate emails to the umpire and each separate coach. 

Everyone makes a mistake. So I don't fault the umpire - but like I stated - the coaches and for the umpires them coaches will have the rest of the season, they deserve to have the correct rule knowledge on this play.

Oh, and for the record, had I had the incorrect ruling (highly unlikely )  on any rule reference I would do the same for the very same reason.

​I think you're taking on more responsibility than you should.  It's not up to you to make sure the coaches know the rules.  That's their job.  Your job is to call the game, not offer post-game education to any team personnel.  You're not their instructor, you're a game official.  Once the game ends, so does your responsibility to them, so you shouldn't try to make anything fair at that point.  You can do too much in these cases.  It's best that once the game ends, let it go and start fresh at the next one.  Any continued conversation should only be had with your partner, assigner, mentor -- other umpires.

[HokieUmp]

Ok,  so I was doing a Fed game and my base umpire balks this - and insist that it as a rules change and a point of emphasis last year. I am like, no it isn't/wasn't. . He also tells me they took away the feint to 3rd completely  .

He won't back down so I cannot correct - coaches are unsure and don't know so no SH*# storm.  Both were good coaches, I emailed them, (the coaches and the smitty),  the case play to make sure they knew the correct rule in the future. 

What could I do?  He made the call and wouldn't listen. now he looks like an idiot. 

​And you look like a terrible partner.

Look, I get it - you want the right call made on the field, and you'd like your partner to know the rules like you do.  But, you:

1) threw your partner under the bus;

2) sucked up to coaches, who - spoiler alert - also get a copy of the rule book and case book.  And, more than likely, they ALSO know how to read for themselves.  Therefore, it's on them to learn/know the rules - you don't need to help them.

Now, you have a partner who shouldn't trust you as far as he can throw you.  He was wrong on the call, but now, if you work together, he (rightly) should wonder if/when you're going to undercut him during a game.

You couldn't do anything differently during the game, I'll grant you that.  But what you chose to do after could have been done better or differently.

[Dean]

Well those of u who think I threw any one under the bus - I didn't he jumped in front of it. But I guess we will need to disagree on this. 

 

[TheRockawayKid]

I need more information here, honestly.

What was the full situation? Did the coaches complain? Were you solicited by your partner? If the answer to either of the previous questions is "no," then you just have to stand quietly. Otherwise, no, you are throwing your parter under the bus — especially if you're emailing the coaches and your partner to tell them that he was wrong. 

[Replacematt]

I need more information here, honestly.

What was the full situation? Did the coaches complain? Were you solicited by your partner? If the answer to either of the previous questions is "no," then you just have to stand quietly. Otherwise, no, you are throwing your parter under the bus — especially if you're emailing the coaches and your partner to tell them that he was wrong. 

​This is a rules question. If you know he's misapplying a rule, you don't eat it. You go to him and inform him of the correct ruling.

[ElkOil]

Well those of u who think I threw any one under the bus - I didn't he jumped in front of it. But I guess we will need to disagree on this. 

 

​Pushed, jumped... I'd say you were driving the bus.  I'm confident all of us on one side of this issue aren't going to convince you otherwise, so maybe this isn't a conversation about who's right and who's wrong.  But why hasn't anyone chimed in supporting the way you handled this?  You did some things after the game that -- as you can tell -- are taboo.  

Put yourself in a game situation with this post and think about it this way: if we were your partners and came to you with this information, would you change your call?

[Dean]

Put yourself in a game situation with this post and think about it this way: if we were your partners and came to you with this information, would you change your call?

I wouldn't F*#K up a simple rule. But had I, yes I would "get it right"

 

[ElkOil]

Put yourself in a game situation with this post and think about it this way: if we were your partners and came to you with this information, would you change your call?

I wouldn't F*#K up a simple rule. But had I, yes I would "get it right"

 

​I don't think I accurately communicated the intent of my last post, so please forgive me.

What I meant was you're in a situation with this post similar to a game in which you made a call your partner questioned.  We're all questioning the way you handled things after your game, but you're insisting you did the right thing and stand by your actions.  Isn't this just like a game in which you botch a call and get feedback from your partner?  At some point I'd think you'd begin to question how you handled things based on the weight of the feedback you've been getting.  And while you can't go back in time to change how you handled it, don't you see merit in the feedback you've received that will influence how you would handle it differently in the future?  Are so you insistent on being right that you can't see the bigger picture?  @BuckeyeMike said it pretty well when he showed that your future credibility and relationships depend on how you handle these things.  And your overall effectiveness as an umpire depends on these relationships and credibility.  

You can spend all of that capital in your pursuit of being right.  But does the short-term gain of being correct this one time outweigh the unintended and as-yet unknown damage it could cause? If your answer is "yes," and you continue to do these things (because I guarantee this won't be the last time a partner punts a call), your umpiring career may be characterized by damaged relationships and crummy assignments unless you start looking at more than just being right.  Because that reputation will follow you for a long, long... long time.

Edited June 1, 2015 by ElkOil

[noumpere]

​

Put yourself in a game situation with this post and think about it this way: if we were your partners and came to you with this information, would you change your call?

​I wouldn't because I'd be sure *I* was right and my partners were wrong.

 

Until some coach says the magic "P" word, (or unless the umpires take it upon themselves), there's no good way to resolve an issue when both umpires are 110% certain that they are correct.  Raise the issue, let the UIC decide, and go on with the game.  If the umpires are any good, they will look it up at the end of the game to get it right next time.

[HokieUmp]

Well those of u who think I threw any one under the bus - I didn't he jumped in front of it. But I guess we will need to disagree on this. 

 

​Thing is, I agree AND disagree with you.

Agree:  The in-game part.  Yes, your partner kicked the call.  And there was no way for you to change his mind, clearly.  There might have been an 'out' for you - invoke your powers as UIC of the game (since most people consider the plate guy the 'crew chief'), and overrule.  Considering that you knew it was a misapplication of a rule, you had even more rope to use.

Disagree:  The post-game part.  NEVER do what you did.  IF - and that's a strong emphasis on the 'if' - anyone emails the coaches, it's either your assignor/commissioner or your partner;  not you.  What you did cuts your partner's legs out from under him, and then the "coaches tribal network" takes over, finishing the job you started.

Look, there are 3 teams out there:  home, visitor, umpire.  And the umpire team is the smallest, and least-loved, one.  Don't frag one of your own.

[Edited to add:  Yes, you're right - I'd like to think that if I were presented with information that I was wrong, I'd be willing to change.  But he wasn't doubting his correctness, or not enough to be convinced.  If I thought I was 100% right, I might just respond like he did.]

Edited June 1, 2015 by HokieUmp

[TheRockawayKid]

​This is a rules question. If you know he's misapplying a rule, you don't eat it. You go to him and inform him of the correct ruling.

​I didn't realize that the partner was the BU. The UIC getting together is slightly better. 

But, from an optics standpoint, I have issues with going unsolicited to a partner who doesn't want help. From an optics perspective, it looks terrible for the umpiring team. Look at it from a coach's perspective: Ump makes a call. Maybe a coach complains, "hey, that was legal!" Then the partner gets together. The call isn't reversed. I don't see the rest of the game going well, honestly. If there's no complaint from a coach, you going unsolicited makes it look worse — "what's going on over there?" And, if you walk away and nothing changed, you don't have anything to come with. If this was, for example, a discussion over pulled foot or swipe tag, you can say "no, we don't have a pulled foot" or whatnot. In this case, what are you going to say if a coach questions what's going on? "We were having a rules discussion in the middle of the game?" 

If there's a misapplication of a rule, and an umpire doesn't want to get help on it, there's a resolution. It's called a protest. At the end of the day, that's what should have happened. It's my two cents. 

[ZebraStripes]

Ok,  so I was doing a Fed game and my base umpire balks this - and insist that it as a rules change and a point of emphasis last year. I am like, no it isn't/wasn't. . He also tells me they took away the feint to 3rd completely  .

He won't back down so I cannot correct - coaches are unsure and don't know so no SH*# storm.  Both were good coaches, I emailed them, (the coaches and the smitty),  the case play to make sure they knew the correct rule in the future. 

What could I do?  He made the call and wouldn't listen. now he looks like an idiot. 

​If you email a coach saying that you kicked a call and send a case play that is one thing.  This...not so much.

[roothog66]

As a coach, I had just the opposite happen last year. In a summer game under OBR rules, the umps both allowed a feint to third from the rubber on the old feint-to-third-pick-to-first play. They were both primarily high school umps and also apparently don't follow MLB, because my contention that the OBR rule had changed to make such moves brought responses of "never heard that."  To their credit, the UIC told me if I could show him the rule in the rule book, go for it. Even invited, I was hesitent to pull a rule book out on an ump. Gotta say, the PU was pretty cool about. I called him over to the dugout between innings and showed him the rule and he went to the other dugout to basically tell the opposing coach he was wrong. Now, if I had come unglued and ran out of the dugout waiving my rulebook, I doubt I would have been afforded such accomodations.

[Mick]

Kevin_K.  I can see where you may be misunderstanding. any discussion on the field was in passing with the other umpire out of ear shot of players.  And not very long. I let him have his ruling and he told the coaches the rule was changed last year, His ruling stood - SO on the field he was backed up.

*******************

It seems to me this is the heart of the problem: the discussion was in passing, and not very long.  Call TIME.  Approach your partner in a friendly manner.  Speak quietly, maybe a hand on his shoulder, and confidently explain what feining to 3rd is permisable, and what isn't.  If he's a gentlemen, he'll allow the call to be overturned.  If he doesn't agree, cover it again in post-game.  If he still doesn't listen,  email HIM the rule later, and him only.