Balk question

[crazyaboutcoues]

High school rules - runner on first, pitcher sets up in the wind-up position with both feet on the rubber and arms to his side. He brings his hands together (pitching motion) as he steps off the rubber with his pivot foot to try to deceive the runner on first. Is this a Balk?

[Thunderheads]

High school rules - runner on first, pitcher sets up in the wind-up position with both feet on the rubber and arms to his side. He brings his hands together (pitching motion) as he steps off the rubber with his pivot foot to try to deceive the runner on first. Is this a Balk?

RH Pitcher?  Pivot foot, meaning Right Foot?

 

No, that's the 'disengage' foot 

[JaxRolo]

No. He is just stepping off

[noumpere]

High school rules - runner on first, pitcher sets up in the wind-up position with both feet on the rubber and arms to his side. He brings his hands together (pitching motion) as he steps off the rubber with his pivot foot to try to deceive the runner on first. Is this a Balk?

If both hands are moving at once, he's committed to pitch.  It's a balk.

[crazyaboutcoues]

I argued that at our meeting. The only thing I found was in 6-2-5, It is also a balk when a runner or runners on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitchers plate, makes any movement associated with his pitch...

 

The argument was that the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner with his arm motions so its a balk. Thank you for your responses...

[Thunderheads]

Based upon your last post ....I'm not sure the initial post is perfectly clear and is hard to "see properly" in your mind ....

[Rich Ives]

If a pitcher steps off with his pivot foot and that fools someone then that someone is really stupid.

[crazyaboutcoues]

Ok lets say the pitcher brought his arms together over his head like he is going to start his normal pitching sequence but he steps back with his pivot foot and throws to first to try to put out the runner.

[Cav]

NFHS CB2.28.3C Comment provides info on time of pitch.  (I'm working my way up to cut n' paste, but I'm not there yet.  Perhaps someone smarter than me could do it.)

 

If you judged he was in contact and started his windup motion to pitch and didn't pitch: balk.  If not, nada.

[johnnyg08]

Feet have to move before hands for a legal disengage.

[grayhawk]

Ok lets say the pitcher brought his arms together over his head like he is going to start his normal pitching sequence but he steps back with his pivot foot and throws to first to try to put out the runner.

Thats a balk even if the arms don't start until after he's disengaged. That's making a motion associated with a pitch while not engaged with the pitcher's plate.

[grayhawk]

NFHS CB2.28.3C Comment provides info on time of pitch. (I'm working my way up to cut n' paste, but I'm not there yet. Perhaps someone smarter than me could do it.)

If you judged he was in contact and started his windup motion to pitch and didn't pitch: balk. If not, nada.

Here it is:

COMMENT: What is the time of the pitch for the (a) windup or (b) set position? For the windup position, the "time of the pitch" occurs when the pitcher (a) after stepping onto the pitcher's plate, with both hands in front of his body first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch; (b) with both hands at his side, he first starts any movement with both arms or the non-pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch; © with either hand in front of his body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, he first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch. In (b), it occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch.

[maven]

This is kinda tricky. The key question is whether F1's moving his hands commits him to pitch. If so, then the OP is a start/stop balk. If not, then he can disengage legally.

 

So does moving his hands commit him to pitch? Compare:

2.28.3 SITUATION C: With R1 on third base, F1 steps on the pitchers plate to take a sign from F2. After taking the sign, F1 brings both hands up together in front of his body and then stops to adjust the ball.
 

RULING: This is a balk.
 
And:

6.1.2 SITUATION C: With a runner on third base, F1 steps on to the pitcher's plate in the windup position and his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side (a) immediately brings his hands together for the purpose of taking the sign but does not begin his delivery....

RULING: In (a), (b) and (c ), these are all legal moves.

See the difference? No? Told you it was tricky.

 

The difference is that in 2.28.3C F1 is in the windup and moves BOTH hands and then stops. Can't do that: moving both hands commits F1 to pitch, and if he stops he's balked (assuming runners).

 

In 6.1.2C, F1 is on the rubber with his glove hand up. When he moves his pitching hand into his glove, he is NOT committed to pitch. He may adjust the ball, take his sign, disengage, etc. Legal.

 

Which do we have in the OP? F1 takes the rubber with "hands at his side," and then moves them both when he brings them together. The moment his hands BOTH move, he's committed to pitch to the batter. When he disengages, he has balked.

 

The comment after 2.28.3 does help, but it does not emphasize one hand moving vs both hands moving, which is the key to seeing that this is a balk. (So I might have repeated what others have said, but my post has more panache ).

[johnnyg08]

This is kinda tricky. The key question is whether F1's moving his hands commits him to pitch. If so, then the OP is a start/stop balk. If not, then he can disengage legally.

 

So does moving his hands commit him to pitch? Compare:

2.28.3 SITUATION C: With R1 on third base, F1 steps on the pitchers plate to take a sign from F2. After taking the sign, F1 brings both hands up together in front of his body and then stops to adjust the ball.

 

RULING: This is a balk.

 

And:

6.1.2 SITUATION C: With a runner on third base, F1 steps on to the pitcher's plate in the windup position and his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side (a) immediately brings his hands together for the purpose of taking the sign but does not begin his delivery....

RULING: In (a), (b) and (c ), these are all legal moves.

See the difference? No? Told you it was tricky.

 

The difference is that in 2.28.3C F1 is in the windup and moves BOTH hands and then stops. Can't do that: moving both hands commits F1 to pitch, and if he stops he's balked (assuming runners).

 

In 6.1.2C, F1 is on the rubber with his glove hand up. When he moves his pitching hand into his glove, he is NOT committed to pitch. He may adjust the ball, take his sign, disengage, etc. Legal.

 

Which do we have in the OP? F1 takes the rubber with "hands at his side," and then moves them both when he brings them together. The moment his hands BOTH move, he's committed to pitch to the batter. When he disengages, he has balked.

 

The comment after 2.28.3 does help, but it does not emphasize one hand moving vs both hands moving, which is the key to seeing that this is a balk. (So I might have repeated what others have said, but my post has more panache ).

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

[maven]

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

True. But judgment without rules knowledge might not qualify.

[johnnyg08]

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

True. But judgment without rules knowledge might not qualify.

Agree, but try explaining those technical aspects of the rule to a coach...it's not going to go over really well. "Hands moved before the feet." "The hands started the pitching motion."

[maven]

 

 

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

True. But judgment without rules knowledge might not qualify.

 

Agree, but try explaining those technical aspects of the rule to a coach...it's not going to go over really well. "Hands moved before the feet." "The hands started the pitching motion."

 

 

Ah, that's the concern.

 

I don't have any problem there. 5 words or less: "Coach, he started and stopped." That will do it 95% of the time.

 

For the 5% who want more explanation, I can do it in 15 words or less. "Coach, when he moved his hands, he was committed to pitch to the batter."

 

I never have to explain the entire balk rule in order to explain why THAT was a balk.

[johnnyg08]

Agree but it was implied in your earlier post. But i think you did it because we needed to see the rule

[Jimurray]

Feet have to move before hands for a legal disengage.

That is not correct exactly. You have feet and hands and don't specify windup or set.

[johnnyg08]

That is not correct exactly. You have feet and hands and don't specify windup or set.

Huh?

[Jimurray]

This is kinda tricky. The key question is whether F1's moving his hands commits him to pitch. If so, then the OP is a start/stop balk. If not, then he can disengage legally. So does moving his hands commit him to pitch? Compare:2.28.3 SITUATION C: With R1 on third base, F1 steps on the pitchers plate to take a sign from F2. After taking the sign, F1 brings both hands up together in front of his body and then stops to adjust the ball. RULING: This is a balk. And:6.1.2 SITUATION C: With a runner on third base, F1 steps on to the pitcher's plate in the windup position and his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side (a) immediately brings his hands together for the purpose of taking the sign but does not begin his delivery....RULING: In (a), (b) and (c ), these are all legal moves.See the difference? No? Told you it was tricky. The difference is that in 2.28.3C F1 is in the windup and moves BOTH hands and then stops. Can't do that: moving both hands commits F1 to pitch, and if he stops he's balked (assuming runners). In 6.1.2C, F1 is on the rubber with his glove hand up. When he moves his pitching hand into his glove, he is NOT committed to pitch. He may adjust the ball, take his sign, disengage, etc. Legal. Which do we have in the OP? F1 takes the rubber with "hands at his side," and then moves them both when he brings them together. The moment his hands BOTH move, he's committed to pitch to the batter. When he disengages, he has balked. The comment after 2.28.3 does help, but it does not emphasize one hand moving vs both hands moving, which is the key to seeing that this is a balk. (So I might have repeated what others have said, but my post has more panache ).

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

Huh

[johnnyg08]

Huh

Good discussion.

[dlongbucco]

 

High school rules - runner on first, pitcher sets up in the wind-up position with both feet on the rubber and arms to his side. He brings his hands together (pitching motion) as he steps off the rubber with his pivot foot to try to deceive the runner on first. Is this a Balk?

If both hands are moving at once, he's committed to pitch.  It's a balk.

 

Agreed.  100% once he brings his hand together if they started apart, then this is a balk.  

[Jimurray]

Posts 2 and 3 exemplify why this move is still tried. FED only of course. Post 7 exemplies why it shouldn't work. But post 2 and 3 are correct for OBR and NCAA.