Bases Loaded Walk, 2 outs (NFHS)

[JaxRolo]

The more I read all the responses and the rule cites I have to go with my first instinct of No Runs scored.

[goody14]

The more I read all the responses and the rule cites I have to go with my first instinct of No Runs scored.

Agree - this one seems pretty cut and dried...no run(s) can score on a play if the third out is the BR before he legally reaches 1B.

 

In regards to note 8-2-3 note:

Any runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is later called out shall be considered as having advanced one base.

 

I always thought this note was put in for situations like CI and balks where the penalty is disregarded if all needed parties get one base.  

 

Imagine there is CI but a batter still puts one down the RF line.  He winds up on 2B but misses 1B.  Defense properly appeals and gets an out.

 

The OHC now comes out and says, "my batter did not get at least one base, so I want the penalty for CI assessed".  This clause makes it where this cannot happen.  

[bam]

The more I read all the responses and the rule cites I have to go with my first instinct of No Runs scored.

You are FIRMLY on both sides of this one, Jax! 

[Cav]

 

How about this (it's not a missed base exactly, but ...):

 

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force†out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

 

Agree w/ maven, this is abandonment.  Abandonment it's appealed and it is a Time Play

 

 

Abandonment may be a time play, but is it an appeal?

 

[johnnyg08]

How about this (it's not a missed base exactly, but ...):

 

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force†out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

 

Agree w/ maven, this is abandonment.  Abandonment it's appealed and it is a Time Play

 

Abandonment may be a time play, but is it an appeal?

No, abandonment is not an appeal.

[maven]

 

 

Maven and Johnnyg, if the runner is called out before completing baserunning responsibilities (read: not reaching his forced base), how do you consider abandonment in that situation a time play?

While not speaking for @maven, the runner gives up his base running responsibilities, in fact he "abandons" his responsibility.

 

I'm still failing to see why abandoning baserunning efforts exempts a player from fulfilling 9-1-1b in FED (no run scores: 3rd out is runner being forced out)

I would argue that the force out by defn is still in play, similar to a runner running out of the baseline while avoiding a tag. Abandonment has to be credited to some fielder, so it would still be considered a force out for all intents and purposes.

 

 

Hm. Why did I say that would be a time play....? It's not an appeal (not retouch nor missed base: you can't miss a base until you've passed it), but I can't think now why that would entail being a time play. The runner made the third out before touching a base to which he was forced, so no runs should score. That seems correct this morning, with the benefit of coffee and without the hindrance of a fine sangiovese.

 

But I'm definitely sticking with the claim that this is not an appeal. Indeed, the defense shouldn't need to say a word here: the umpire should call the runner out when he has abandoned his effort to advance.

[johnnyg08]

The runner made the third out before touching a base to which he was forced, so no runs should score. That seems correct this morning, with the benefit of coffee and without the hindrance of a fine sangiovese.

 

But I'm definitely sticking with the claim that this is not an appeal. Indeed, the defense shouldn't need to say a word here: the umpire should call the runner out when he has abandoned his effort to advance.

I agree w/ this.

[noumpere]

 

 

How about this (it's not a missed base exactly, but ...):

 

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force†out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

 

Agree w/ maven, this is abandonment.  Abandonment it's appealed and it is a Time Play

 

 

Abandonment may be a time play, but is it an appeal?

 

 

Even in OBR if the umpire rules abandonment, the defense can still appeal to get a force out (assuming the runner who abandoned was forced, of course)

[JaxRolo]

 

The more I read all the responses and the rule cites I have to go with my first instinct of No Runs scored.

You are FIRMLY on both sides of this one, Jax! 

 

Flip of a coin always does the trick.

[johnnyg08]

How about this (it's not a missed base exactly, but ...):

 

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 trots in from third and touches home plate. B2, however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force†out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

 

Agree w/ maven, this is abandonment.  Abandonment it's appealed and it is a Time Play

 

Abandonment may be a time play, but is it an appeal?

Even in OBR if the umpire rules abandonment, the defense can still appeal to get a force out (assuming the runner who abandoned was forced, of course)

Perhaps, but they shouldn't have to.

[Mad Mike]

Excellent discussion going on here. I did note that the BRD in Section 33 I cited above denotes in Note #38: Instances exist where the umpire, without waiting for an appeal may declare out a runner who does not advance on an award.

 

I also researched abandonment in the BRD and found distinct differences between how this is enforced based on the rule set. Section 453: RUNNER: ABANDONS ATTEMPT TO RUN BASES:

 

FED: A runner is out if, AFTER TOUCHING FIRST, he abandons his attempt to touch the next base. The umpire must judge whether a runner heading for the dugout or his deensive position is abandoning his efforts to run the bases. No rule provides for non-removal of a force for that out. (8-4-2p; 8.4.2c)

 

NCAA: (changed) After reaching first base, any runner who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his defensive position believing there is no further play MAY be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his effort to run the bases. Even though an out is declared, the ball remains in play for any other runner. (2-1; 8-5c)

 

(ALSO) If the runner, believing he is called out on a tag at first or third starts for his dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still by indicating by his action that he is out, the runner shall be declared out for abandoning the bases. (8-5c Nt)

 

Play 278-453 notes: 1 out, score tied, bottom of last inning, R1. B1 hits the ball over the fence in fair territory for home run. R1 believing the game is over heads across the infield for his dugout as BR circles the bases correctly. Ruling: R1 is out for abandoning the bases. B1's homer still wins the game. (added) If there are two out, the run would not count. Unless two are out, the status of the following runner is not affected by the actions of a preceding runner.

 

OBR: Same as FED; that is, determining the abandonment is left to umpire judgment. (7.08a-2) The ball remains alive. (7.08a-2 CMT)

 

Play 279-452: OBR Only: R1, R3, 1 out, 2-2 score, top ninth. B1 hits weakly to second baseman, who swipes at R1, then throws to first in time for what he thinks is the inning-ending double play. R3, running on contact, touches the plate before the "tag" of R1. The umpire calls R1 safe, but the runner, thinking he is out, heads for his position in center field. Now the umpire calls out R1. Ruling: R1 is out for abandonment. That out should be signaled by the umpire, who will also score the run. But if the defense appeals, the out at second becomes a force out, and the run will not count. (Which is exactly what noumpere posted above here!)

[maven]

Play 279-452: OBR Only: R1, R3, 1 out, 2-2 score, top ninth. B1 hits weakly to second baseman, who swipes at R1, then throws to first in time for what he thinks is the inning-ending double play. R3, running on contact, touches the plate before the "tag" of R1. The umpire calls R1 safe, but the runner, thinking he is out, heads for his position in center field. Now the umpire calls out R1. Ruling: R1 is out for abandonment. That out should be signaled by the umpire, who will also score the run. But if the defense appeals, the out at second becomes a force out, and the run will not count. (Which is exactly what noumpere posted above here!)

 

The play is not described sufficiently, but here's my take: R1 never touched 2B, but passed it on his way to CF (his defensive position for the next half inning).

 

The defense appealed the missed base, which became an advantageous 4th out that supersedes R1's being called out for abandonment. That explains why the run does not score, since the missed base was a force play.

 

Strangely, ruling R1 out for abandonment is presented as a time play ("score the run"). When the defense appeals (the missed base?), it becomes a force play and cancels the run.

[jjskitours]

Why is the appeal of R1 a "force play" since B1 was thrown out at first base. Wasn't the force removed - R1 could now go back to 1st. What am I missing?

[noumpere]

Why is the appeal of R1 a "force play" since B1 was thrown out at first base. Wasn't the force removed - R1 could now go back to 1st. What am I missing?

Because R1 was still forced when he missed the base / abandoned his efforts to advance.  And, yes, you need to make an assumption about the play.

[Cav]

 

Why is the appeal of R1 a "force play" since B1 was thrown out at first base. Wasn't the force removed - R1 could now go back to 1st. What am I missing?

Because R1 was still forced when he missed the base / abandoned his efforts to advance.  And, yes, you need to make an assumption about the play.

 

 

The umpire called R1 "safe" indicating that indeed he did safely acquire 2B.  If the umpire were calling the actual play (F4 swipe tag try) before R1 acquired 2B safely, then the call I would make would be "no tag." 

[labguy1971]

The BR never legally reached 1B, so no runs score.