DH re-entry

[Guest Hemps]

Fed rules: Batter replaces starting DH in line up and starting F3 (who is being hit for). Which player is eligible to be re-entered? Starting DH or starting F3 or either or neither?

[Replacematt]

Both can re-enter. All starters have re-entry privileges, and all re-entries must occur in the same spot in the batting order. Being that the role of the DH was eliminated with the new batter, only one of the starters can be in the lineup at a time from here on out.

[johnnyg08]

Both can re-enter. All starters have re-entry privileges, and all re-entries must occur in the same spot in the batting order. Being that the role of the DH was eliminated with the new batter, only one of the starters can be in the lineup at a time from here on out.

 

Read what Matt wrote and read it again.  I get this question every year from guys who should know better.  You might be a newer umpire so I'm not referring to you.  

[mrumpiresir]

Both can re-enter. All starters have re-entry privileges, and all re-entries must occur in the same spot in the batting order. Being that the role of the DH was eliminated with the new batter, only one of the starters can be in the lineup at a time from here on out.

The role of the DH is terminated when the DH plays defense or the player he is batting for plays offense. The new batter could simply be a substitute for the DH and would not terminate the role of the DH.

[maven]

I will add that the substitution will happen either on offense (when the sub hits for the DH) or on defense (when he enters for the starting F3). In that half inning, the other player in the DH/F3 combo is not yet out of the game, nor is the role of the DH yet terminated.

 

Only if that sub does the other job as well in the next half inning (so goes to the field or hits after having done the other one) would the OTHER starter then be out of the game AND the role of the DH terminated.

 

The coach announcing that he's doing both is neither here nor there (it amounts to a projected substitution, which we disallow). The substitutions do not take effect until the player is legally in the game in a role. If the coach were to change his mind after a half inning and keep the DH, he could legally do so, no matter what he had "announced."

[johnnyg08]

Projected substitutions are legal except in the case of courtesy runners and projecting a substitution.

It was clarified in a preseason guide a few years ago.

Edited February 18, 2015 by johnnyg08
The intent of the rule is due to a few specific instances.

[grayhawk]

Projected substitutions are legal except in the case of courtesy runners and projecting a substitution.

It was clarified in a preseason guide a few years ago.

 

Come again?

[johnnyg08]

 

Projected substitutions are legal except in the case of courtesy runners and projecting a substitution.

It was clarified in a preseason guide a few years ago.

 

Come again?

 

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule. You can't project that he's going to be going into the game as a F2 the next inning so you're going to use a CR for him in the offensive half. That is the projected substitution that is illegal. I think there's an old thread around that piece on here...but it might be another forum. Either this year or a couple of years ago there was a piece about projected subs...

Edited February 18, 2015 by johnnyg08
Not the only reason...but a reason

[maven]

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule.

That's not true. The prohibition against projected substitutions is quite general.

 

FED 3-1-1:

After the lineup cards are official (1-1-2) prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief.

There is a case play (3.1.1N) that applies this principle to a CR situation, but it's incorrect to infer that it applies only to CR situations.

 

Projected substitutions are not allowed because the projection commits a team to nothing. A coach can change his mind, cancel the substitution, or put in a different player, when the team goes on defense or the player comes to bat.

[Richvee]

 

 

Projected substitutions are legal except in the case of courtesy runners and projecting a substitution.

It was clarified in a preseason guide a few years ago.

 

Come again?

 

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule. You can't project that he's going to be going into the game as a F2 the next inning so you're going to use a CR for him in the offensive half. That is the projected substitution that is illegal. I think there's an old thread around that piece on here...but it might be another forum. Either this year or a couple of years ago there was a piece about projected subs...

 

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/23725-courtesy-runner/

[johnnyg08]

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule.

That's not true. The prohibition against projected substitutions is quite general.

 

FED 3-1-1:

After the lineup cards are official (1-1-2) prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief.

There is a case play (3.1.1N) that applies this principle to a CR situation, but it's incorrect to infer that it applies only to CR situations.

 

Projected substitutions are not allowed because the projection commits a team to nothing. A coach can change his mind, cancel the substitution, or put in a different player, when the team goes on defense or the player comes to bat.

There's no dispute there. But the intent of the Projected Sub rule has to do w/ the courtesy runner on offense and a future substitution of defense.

In my games, if a coach wants to come out and give me a bunch of substitutions in the top of the 7th when he's getting kids into the game, I'm going to take them at that time. I'm not going to stop the game as every new batter comes to hit.

[Jimurray]

I will add that the substitution will happen either on offense (when the sub hits for the DH) or on defense (when he enters for the starting F3). In that half inning, the other player in the DH/F3 combo is not yet out of the game, nor is the role of the DH yet terminated.

 

Only if that sub does the other job as well in the next half inning (so goes to the field or hits after having done the other one) would the OTHER starter then be out of the game AND the role of the DH terminated.

 

The coach announcing that he's doing both is neither here nor there (it amounts to a projected substitution, which we disallow). The substitutions do not take effect until the player is legally in the game in a role. If the coach were to change his mind after a half inning and keep the DH, he could legally do so, no matter what he had "announced."

Wouldn't your lineup card tell you what you have? When you take the sub you're either going to have one for the DH or one for the defensive player depending on what the coach told you. More than likely it would be one for the DH. If the coach actually tells you the sub is for the defensive player and is now going to bat I think you would make the change in the #10 slot and show him batting in the DH slot. That would kill the DH. Hard to picture a coach doing this. Even harder would be a coach telling you the sub is batting and I'll let you know which player he batted for later.

[Jimurray]

 

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule.

That's not true. The prohibition against projected substitutions is quite general.

 

FED 3-1-1:

After the lineup cards are official (1-1-2) prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief.

There is a case play (3.1.1N) that applies this principle to a CR situation, but it's incorrect to infer that it applies only to CR situations.

 

Projected substitutions are not allowed because the projection commits a team to nothing. A coach can change his mind, cancel the substitution, or put in a different player, when the team goes on defense or the player comes to bat.

 

In OBR and NCAA a sub is in the game when the coach tells you. If he tells you 4 for 5 and that slot might not come up in the half inning 4 is in the game. I think that is also correct in FED except when they also want to project a defensive position that would affect the CR rule.

I don't think I would be so strict as to hold a coach to his sub when he messes up and says 4 for 5, no I meant 3 for 5.

[maven]

There's no dispute there. But the intent of the Projected Sub rule has to do w/ the courtesy runner on offense and a future substitution of defense.

In my games, if a coach wants to come out and give me a bunch of substitutions in the top of the 7th when he's getting kids into the game, I'm going to take them at that time. I'm not going to stop the game as every new batter comes to hit.

This part is wrong: projected subs are disallowed by rule even in games that don't involve CR's. Ohio prohibits CR's in league games; projected subs are prohibited in all games, so clearly that prohibition is not just about preventing a problem with CR's.

 

Your game management strategy will work fine until it doesn't. You've made the choice not to enforce part of 3-1-1; I choose differently. I'm OK with that.

[Jimurray]

 

There's no dispute there. But the intent of the Projected Sub rule has to do w/ the courtesy runner on offense and a future substitution of defense.

In my games, if a coach wants to come out and give me a bunch of substitutions in the top of the 7th when he's getting kids into the game, I'm going to take them at that time. I'm not going to stop the game as every new batter comes to hit.

This part is wrong: projected subs are disallowed by rule even in games that don't involve CR's. Ohio prohibits CR's in league games; projected subs are prohibited in all games, so clearly that prohibition is not just about preventing a problem with CR's.

 

Your game management strategy will work fine until it doesn't. You've made the choice not to enforce part of 3-1-1; I choose differently. I'm OK with that.

 

@mstaylor got a ruling from FED national in this thorny thread: http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/52425-unnannounced-sub-or-projected-sub-boo/page-10?hl=%20projected%20%20sub.

Offensive subs must be made on offense and defensive subs must be made on defense. You can take 3 batter changes in a row on offense if the coach wants to lock himself in. In the OP, you are either taking an offensive sub for the DH or an offensive sub for the DP who is batting for himself. Unless you let the coach leave it up in the air.

[johnnyg08]

 

There's no dispute there. But the intent of the Projected Sub rule has to do w/ the courtesy runner on offense and a future substitution of defense.

In my games, if a coach wants to come out and give me a bunch of substitutions in the top of the 7th when he's getting kids into the game, I'm going to take them at that time. I'm not going to stop the game as every new batter comes to hit.

This part is wrong: projected subs are disallowed by rule even in games that don't involve CR's. Ohio prohibits CR's in league games; projected subs are prohibited in all games, so clearly that prohibition is not just about preventing a problem with CR's.

 

Your game management strategy will work fine until it doesn't. You've made the choice not to enforce part of 3-1-1; I choose differently. I'm OK with that.

 

 

It will work fine until it doesn't?  I'm in control of my lineup card.  The projected sub rule deals with the Courtesy Runner and a few other things that you will read in the attached document below.  That's the point of the rule.

[johnnyg08]

The reasons for the purpose of the projected substitution rule is contained in this document.  

 

 

[johnnyg08]

 

The only reason against a projected substitution is because of the courtesy runner rule.

That's not true. The prohibition against projected substitutions is quite general.

 

FED 3-1-1:

After the lineup cards are official (1-1-2) prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief.

There is a case play (3.1.1N) that applies this principle to a CR situation, but it's incorrect to infer that it applies only to CR situations.

 

Projected substitutions are not allowed because the projection commits a team to nothing. A coach can change his mind, cancel the substitution, or put in a different player, when the team goes on defense or the player comes to bat.

 

 

I would agree with this piece.  It was incorrect of me to state that it was only specific to CR situations. @maven you are always worth your weight in facts when it comes to these things...thanks for forcing me dig up the publication from 2013.  

[maven]

I would agree with this piece.  It was incorrect of me to state that it was only specific to CR situations. @maven you are always worth your weight in facts when it comes to these things...thanks for forcing me dig up the publication from 2013.

Worth my weight in facts? Did you just call me fat?

[johnnyg08]

 

I would agree with this piece.  It was incorrect of me to state that it was only specific to CR situations. @maven you are always worth your weight in facts when it comes to these things...thanks for forcing me dig up the publication from 2013.

Worth my weight in facts? Did you just call me fat?

 

 

Gluten free facts.