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Would you eject for this?


immaculate1976
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From what I have learned here on U-E from other posts in the past,

 

1) My plate meeting is LEGS (Lineups, Equipment proper and legal, Ground rules, Sportsmanship).  I don't discuss the mercy rules unless a coach asks. They should know them, and almost always do. In timed games, I state the time limit, and tell them time starts at the end of this meeting.  Coin flip occurs then, if needed.  I don't discuss initiate discussion of anything else.

2) I don't initiate conversations with coaches during games. Invites unnecessary and unwanted discussion. If a manager or coach asks about a mercy rule during the game, I answer, of course.

3) I don't announce how many runs are needed by anyone in the last inning or to avoid a mercy rule ending. (Gee, sometimes a manager will essentially concede a game by mercy, throwing a non pitcher for the last inning, so who am I to tell anyone what he "needs to do" as far as runs or strategy is concerned. I've seen this happen in a tournament.)

4) If a manager or coach asks how many minutes are left at some point during a timed game, I will answer.  Sometimes I tell them (between innings), when there are 5 minutes or less left in the game.

5) When the game ends by mercy rule or end of last inning, I drop the balls on the plate and walk away with my partner.  Both team's coaches should know the score and the mercy rules.  I don't say, "Ball game!"  (If there is a a time limit, and it is reached, I say, "Time!" and then "Time has expired.")

 

[One thing on "I drop the balls on the plate and walk away." --- in the tournaments I often do, we are required to keep a score card with score and the outs pitched by each pitcher.  And, the managers sign the card after the game ends.  So I can't simply walk away at the end of those games.  Instead I walk to the mound and complete the card while the teams shake hands, then the managers approach me, sign the card, and my partner and I head off.]

 

If the veterans here think I am incorrect in some of my takeaways from previous discussions, please let me know.  I see a variety of approaches being discussed in this thread, some of which might invite issues, I think.

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I always tell the coaches. If we are close to time limit, I just walk over to each HC and say we have 5 minutes left in game time, this is going to be it. Anything more than 5 minutes and I don't say anything, because knowing my luck we will have have a 6 pitch inning and have to go 1 more. Same thing with the Mercy Rule, "Steve, you need 2 to keep it going. If not we are done." In 20 years I have never had a coach say anything but Thank you or I know or my favorite "Good! We Suck!!"

 

:shakehead:

You shouldn't do any of this. You cannot call a game until it actually is complete, and I've already made my commentary on informing teams of what they need to do. If they aren't paying attention, you've just saved them from their incompetence and taken away the other team's legitimate advantage.

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I always tell the coaches. If we are close to time limit, I just walk over to each HC and say we have 5 minutes left in game time, this is going to be it. Anything more than 5 minutes and I don't say anything, because knowing my luck we will have have a 6 pitch inning and have to go 1 more. Same thing with the Mercy Rule, "Steve, you need 2 to keep it going. If not we are done." In 20 years I have never had a coach say anything but Thank you or I know or my favorite "Good! We Suck!!"
:shakehead: You shouldn't do any of this. You cannot call a game until it actually is complete, and I've already made my commentary on informing teams of what they need to do. If they aren't paying attention, you've just saved them from their incompetence and taken away the other team's legitimate advantage.
And this is where we differ. I do it and will keep doing it. But then again I don't have a lot of issues in any of my games I work. Most of the time the coaches are grateful I have told them. And what advantage? Ummmmm coach you are losing by 13 runs. If you score 4 we keep going. Walk over to the other coach and tell him the same thing. Coach you are up by 13. If they score 4 we are going to keep going.
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I always tell the coaches. If we are close to time limit, I just walk over to each HC and say we have 5 minutes left in game time, this is going to be it. Anything more than 5 minutes and I don't say anything, because knowing my luck we will have have a 6 pitch inning and have to go 1 more. Same thing with the Mercy Rule, "Steve, you need 2 to keep it going. If not we are done." In 20 years I have never had a coach say anything but Thank you or I know or my favorite "Good! We Suck!!"

:shakehead:

You shouldn't do any of this. You cannot call a game until it actually is complete, and I've already made my commentary on informing teams of what they need to do. If they aren't paying attention, you've just saved them from their incompetence and taken away the other team's legitimate advantage.

 

And this is where we differ. I do it and will keep doing it. But then again I don't have a lot of issues in any of my games I work. Most of the time the coaches are grateful I have told them.

And what advantage? Ummmmm coach you are losing by 13 runs. If you score 4 we keep going. Walk over to the other coach and tell him the same thing. Coach you are up by 13. If they score 4 we are going to keep going.

 

 

A. The game's not over until it is actually over.

B. Because the team that is on the ball has an advantage over the team that's not. You just took that away. The winning coach could be off in la-la land because of the score, and now you've just planted the seed that the xth run is important. You just took away part of the chance for that losing team to make their shot at a comeback.

 

What is it about these umpires wanting to do the jobs of coaches? If you want to do that, take off the shirt and the mask and go sit in a dugout.

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Worked a large tournament here in SoCal over the week of July 4th.  Mercy was 8 runs after 5.  In my game, I mentioned the mercy rule to both coaches during the plate meeting, and one of them said that he thought it was 10 after 5, and that was what they did in their last game.  I assured him that it was 8, not 10 and he said no problem.

 

I finished my game and then went to the adjacent field to watch the two umpires working there.  After a few minutes, the third out was made in the inning, I see BU give PU a signal that the game is over and PU calls the game - "That's 8 runs - ballgame."  Home coach walks over to get PU's attention and says that the mercy is 10 runs, not 8.  PU checks with BU and they agree that it's 8 runs.  HC is very confused, but doesn't make a big issue of it.

 

Of course, if PU had mentioned the mercy rule at the plate meeting, then there would not have been an issue.  But also, if he had given a heads up prior to that inning, then the end game confusion could have been avoided.  I always keep the white sheet in my ball bag just in case these questions arise.

 

@Matt, I am with @Magic on this one.  It's a good idea to avoid surprises when dealing with "artificial" game ending procedures (time limits and run rules).  I have never once had a coach make an issue of it, and the responses are normally neutral to positive.  I have no problem if you prefer to not do this, but I think you are way out of line telling someone to "get off the field" because they manage their game differently from you in this regard.

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Worked a large tournament here in SoCal over the week of July 4th.  Mercy was 8 runs after 5.  In my game, I mentioned the mercy rule to both coaches during the plate meeting, and one of them said that he thought it was 10 after 5, and that was what they did in their last game.  I assured him that it was 8, not 10 and he said no problem.

 

I finished my game and then went to the adjacent field to watch the two umpires working there.  After a few minutes, the third out was made in the inning, I see BU give PU a signal that the game is over and PU calls the game - "That's 8 runs - ballgame."  Home coach walks over to get PU's attention and says that the mercy is 10 runs, not 8.  PU checks with BU and they agree that it's 8 runs.  HC is very confused, but doesn't make a big issue of it.

 

Of course, if PU had mentioned the mercy rule at the plate meeting, then there would not have been an issue.  But also, if he had given a heads up prior to that inning, then the end game confusion could have been avoided.  I always keep the white sheet in my ball bag just in case these questions arise.

 

@Matt, I am with @Magic on this one.  It's a good idea to avoid surprises when dealing with "artificial" game ending procedures (time limits and run rules).  I have never once had a coach make an issue of it, and the responses are normally neutral to positive.  I have no problem if you prefer to not do this, but I think you are way out of line telling someone to "get off the field" because they manage their game differently from you in this regard.

 

I didn't tell him to get off the field because of his management style. It's his apparent "I don't want to be here" attitude.

 

As for your example, what would have happened had that reminder occurred before the last inning and one team was playing for a different number than the other?

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Worked a large tournament here in SoCal over the week of July 4th.  Mercy was 8 runs after 5.  In my game, I mentioned the mercy rule to both coaches during the plate meeting, and one of them said that he thought it was 10 after 5, and that was what they did in their last game.  I assured him that it was 8, not 10 and he said no problem.

 

I finished my game and then went to the adjacent field to watch the two umpires working there.  After a few minutes, the third out was made in the inning, I see BU give PU a signal that the game is over and PU calls the game - "That's 8 runs - ballgame."  Home coach walks over to get PU's attention and says that the mercy is 10 runs, not 8.  PU checks with BU and they agree that it's 8 runs.  HC is very confused, but doesn't make a big issue of it.

 

Of course, if PU had mentioned the mercy rule at the plate meeting, then there would not have been an issue.  But also, if he had given a heads up prior to that inning, then the end game confusion could have been avoided.  I always keep the white sheet in my ball bag just in case these questions arise.

 

@Matt, I am with @Magic on this one.  It's a good idea to avoid surprises when dealing with "artificial" game ending procedures (time limits and run rules).  I have never once had a coach make an issue of it, and the responses are normally neutral to positive.  I have no problem if you prefer to not do this, but I think you are way out of line telling someone to "get off the field" because they manage their game differently from you in this regard.

 

I didn't tell him to get off the field because of his management style. It's his apparent "I don't want to be here" attitude.

 

As for your example, what would have happened had that reminder occurred before the last inning and one team was playing for a different number than the other?

 

 

Nothing in his posts indicates a "I don't want to be here" attitude.  You are interpreting something that isn't there.

 

On your second question, what would have happened is that I would have avoided an argument at the end of the game.

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Worked a large tournament here in SoCal over the week of July 4th.  Mercy was 8 runs after 5.  In my game, I mentioned the mercy rule to both coaches during the plate meeting, and one of them said that he thought it was 10 after 5, and that was what they did in their last game.  I assured him that it was 8, not 10 and he said no problem.

 

I finished my game and then went to the adjacent field to watch the two umpires working there.  After a few minutes, the third out was made in the inning, I see BU give PU a signal that the game is over and PU calls the game - "That's 8 runs - ballgame."  Home coach walks over to get PU's attention and says that the mercy is 10 runs, not 8.  PU checks with BU and they agree that it's 8 runs.  HC is very confused, but doesn't make a big issue of it.

 

Of course, if PU had mentioned the mercy rule at the plate meeting, then there would not have been an issue.  But also, if he had given a heads up prior to that inning, then the end game confusion could have been avoided.  I always keep the white sheet in my ball bag just in case these questions arise.

 

@Matt, I am with @Magic on this one.  It's a good idea to avoid surprises when dealing with "artificial" game ending procedures (time limits and run rules).  I have never once had a coach make an issue of it, and the responses are normally neutral to positive.  I have no problem if you prefer to not do this, but I think you are way out of line telling someone to "get off the field" because they manage their game differently from you in this regard.

 

I didn't tell him to get off the field because of his management style. It's his apparent "I don't want to be here" attitude.

 

As for your example, what would have happened had that reminder occurred before the last inning and one team was playing for a different number than the other?

 

 

Nothing in his posts indicates a "I don't want to be here" attitude.  You are interpreting something that isn't there.

 

On your second question, what would have happened is that I would have avoided an argument at the end of the game.

 

 

When an umpire tells me that a 13-run comeback is crazy after I tell him he needs to let the teams have their chance, that is the logical conclusion to draw.

 

And I don't agree with your second answer. The argument at the end of the game is meaningless. The losing coach should know what is going on. Now, you gave him a heads-up he didn't have already, and you screwed the other team.

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How hard is it to say/confirm "7 innings, 10 after 5" at the plate meeting? There is absolutely no downside and it clarifies things ahead of time when no emotions are high. Especially in the summer when it's often "8 after 5" or "15 after 3/10 after 4/8 after 5" or whatever. It's literally 3 seconds of speaking.

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How hard is it to say/confirm "7 innings, 10 after 5" at the plate meeting? There is absolutely no downside and it clarifies things ahead of time when no emotions are high. Especially in the summer when it's often "8 after 5" or "15 after 3/10 after 4/8 after 5" or whatever. It's literally 3 seconds of speaking.

 

That's how we do it, particularly since we have an assortment of sister leagues that do different things for league play/interleague play and regular-season/playoffs.

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Worked a large tournament here in SoCal over the week of July 4th.  Mercy was 8 runs after 5.  In my game, I mentioned the mercy rule to both coaches during the plate meeting, and one of them said that he thought it was 10 after 5, and that was what they did in their last game.  I assured him that it was 8, not 10 and he said no problem.

 

I finished my game and then went to the adjacent field to watch the two umpires working there.  After a few minutes, the third out was made in the inning, I see BU give PU a signal that the game is over and PU calls the game - "That's 8 runs - ballgame."  Home coach walks over to get PU's attention and says that the mercy is 10 runs, not 8.  PU checks with BU and they agree that it's 8 runs.  HC is very confused, but doesn't make a big issue of it.

 

Of course, if PU had mentioned the mercy rule at the plate meeting, then there would not have been an issue.  But also, if he had given a heads up prior to that inning, then the end game confusion could have been avoided.  I always keep the white sheet in my ball bag just in case these questions arise.

 

@Matt, I am with @Magic on this one.  It's a good idea to avoid surprises when dealing with "artificial" game ending procedures (time limits and run rules).  I have never once had a coach make an issue of it, and the responses are normally neutral to positive.  I have no problem if you prefer to not do this, but I think you are way out of line telling someone to "get off the field" because they manage their game differently from you in this regard.

 

I didn't tell him to get off the field because of his management style. It's his apparent "I don't want to be here" attitude.

 

As for your example, what would have happened had that reminder occurred before the last inning and one team was playing for a different number than the other?

 

 

Nothing in his posts indicates a "I don't want to be here" attitude.  You are interpreting something that isn't there.

 

On your second question, what would have happened is that I would have avoided an argument at the end of the game.

 

 

When an umpire tells me that a 13-run comeback is crazy after I tell him he needs to let the teams have their chance, that is the logical conclusion to draw.

 

And I don't agree with your second answer. The argument at the end of the game is meaningless. The losing coach should know what is going on. Now, you gave him a heads-up he didn't have already, and you screwed the other team.

 

 

Nobody ever said that a team with a 13 run deficit shouldn't get their chance.  I think his point was that reminding a coach that's down by 13 runs that this (edit) may be the last inning doesn't tilt the competitive scale.  Doesn't mean that he doesn't want to be there - that's a major reach.

 

It's okay to disagree.  There is no manual on how to handle this.  I have absolutely no problem that you prefer to say nothing.  My issue is you telling others that we are "screwing the other team" by reminding them of something that they likely already know.  That would be akin to saying not to tell a coach that he's taken his second trip in a Fed game.  What if he lost track?  Am I screwing the other team by reminding him?  Of course not - it's just good game management.

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I have no problem with you telling the coach how much time he has left or how many he needs to avoid the run rule. It is your game to call and your choice. I however do not do it and here is why

 

- I already told him in the plate meeting what the run rule is

- If he is losing that bad he is going to be mad and this is where he might take a jab or go off on you

- He has a scoreboard right in front of him showing him the score

- If he has forgot about the run rule it is easier to tell him after the game so when he gets red hot you can walk away.

 

I do not think it gives the coach a advantage at all. 

I dont think he is saying he does not want to be there I think he is like alot of us and if the game is that far out of reach no one wants to be out there any longer than they have to.

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I have no problem with you telling the coach how much time he has left or how many he needs to avoid the run rule. It is your game to call and your choice. I however do not do it and here is why

 

- I already told him in the plate meeting what the run rule is

- If he is losing that bad he is going to be mad and this is where he might take a jab or go off on you

- He has a scoreboard right in front of him showing him the score

- If he has forgot about the run rule it is easier to tell him after the game so when he gets red hot you can walk away.

 

I do not think it gives the coach a advantage at all. 

I dont think he is saying he does not want to be there I think he is like alot of us and if the game is that far out of reach no one wants to be out there any longer than they have to.

 

Good post.  FWIW, I feel that it's more important to remind the coach about the impending time limit than about the run rule.  Since I keep the clock, having transparency is important so the losing team doesn't feel like you are cutting them short when an inning ends very close to the "no new inning" time limit.

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I have no problem with you telling the coach how much time he has left or how many he needs to avoid the run rule. It is your game to call and your choice. I however do not do it and here is why

- I already told him in the plate meeting what the run rule is

- If he is losing that bad he is going to be mad and this is where he might take a jab or go off on you

- He has a scoreboard right in front of him showing him the score

- If he has forgot about the run rule it is easier to tell him after the game so when he gets red hot you can walk away.

I do not think it gives the coach a advantage at all.

I dont think he is saying he does not want to be there I think he is like alot of us and if the game is that far out of reach no one wants to be out there any longer than they have to.

Immaculate most of the time during summer there are no scoreboards. So for me, when I am telling the coaches what is going on i.e. mercy rule or amount of time left is to make sure we are all on the same page. I dont want anyone to be surprised when the game is over. All of us have been on a field where it is a 13 run or worse game differential. The pitchers are laboring, you are trying everything you can to find a strike. At that point we are just rrying to survive the game. Can a team come back from a 13 run defecit in the last inning? Absolutely they can. Has it ever happened in a game I have umpired? Not 1 time. But the first time it happens Matt I will take you out to dinner. I have never said I don't want to be out there. Unlike a lot of people I don't umpire for the money. I umpire because I love umpiring. My wife allows me to umpire because she gets paid for me being out there.

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- He has a scoreboard right in front of him showing him the score
Not on, oh, 90% of the fields I play on. I'd say 50-60% of the varsity fields I do have scoreboards. Less than 5% of the summer stuff I do has a functioning board. And usually it is mom in the stands keeping score who doesn't realize R1 tagged on his way to second means the runner crossing home doesn't count. In games where there is a real scorer and/or a scoreboard I don't say a word. Most of what I do has neither that is why I check with both sides, it prevents the surprises after one team thinks the game is over and one doesn't. Kid you not, I work a varsity field where the team won't turn the lights on since they are too costly to run, and there is no scoreboard.
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  • 3 weeks later...

@JHSump - I cover run rules at the plate meeting. And in my tourneys, I am professionally friendly with my HCs. When I'm BU, I shake hands with my BCs and introduce myself. Not to invite questions or discussion, just to be cordial. If/when the time arises that they wanna argue a call, they get sent down straight away. Never been an issue. Ever.

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@JHSump - I cover run rules at the plate meeting. And in my tourneys, I am professionally friendly with my HCs. When I'm BU, I shake hands with my BCs and introduce myself. Not to invite questions or discussion, just to be cordial. If/when the time arises that they wanna argue a call, they get sent down straight away. Never been an issue. Ever.

Thanks for the input @Jocko.  I will consider going over the run rules at the plate meeting.  I suppose that can't hurt, can head off issues later, and doesn't take much effort or time.  I am actually professionally friendly with all of them, at first, and hopefully it just stays that way.  Of course, that's up to them.  What I meant by not initiating conversations was conversations of substance (rules, calls, etc.).  I get what you are saying.  A lot of problems can be avoided through initial good will.  In all walks of life.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I always make it a point to let both teams know the score at the top of the inning if there is a game-ending potential in that inning.  I'll check with the "official scorekeeper" to confirm the inning and score.  Then I report it to the coaches: "Coach, official book has us in the top of the 7th, 6 to 5 in favor of the home team."

 

I have had a couple of times where the game appears to be over and the two scorekeepers (usually one from each team with the home team scorekeeper being "official") disagree.  I'd rather sort it out at the top of the inning, so that everyone is on the same page, than have one team start to walk off at the "end" of the game while the other team is asking why they're leaving because they think the game is tied.  .

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I'm definitely ejecting for "you're starting to piss me off".  It's one of those phrases that implies a complete lack of respect.

I'd have to tell the coach, "Then you're really not gonna like this then!"  See ya!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't see the point of reminding the coach of the score. 

Sounds to me as if coach took that like it was being rubbed in his face.

If YOU know the score and the run rule, you know when the game is over.

Before that time comes, I make a point to not bring it up.

 

I am with this. It is not our duty to keep score or remind the teams/coachs about this. Let them figure this out. The EJ was not warranted.

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