funky pitcher's move

[JHSump]

R2. Outs don't matter. RHP. Fed rules.

 

Pitcher is in the windup position, left foot to left of rubber, facing batter, hands together (ball in glove) in front of body.

 

His first move is lifting his pivot toot very slightly and placing it down on the dirt behind the rubber, parallel to the back side of the rubber.  Then he lifts his left foot and leg high in the air looking to all the world like a pitch is about to begin.

 

But, he's off the rubber, and simply continues turning to the right until he has come all the way around to face 2B, and throws to F4 for an attempted pickoff of R2.

 

What's your call, if any?

 

 

[maven]

You have to judge whether the disengagement is legal. If so, he's an infielder and the pitching restrictions are off. Nothing else he does can make him liable for a balk.

 

No rule specifies how he must step off, other than that the pivot foot alone must move first, the foot must go directly back behind the rubber, and the foot needs to be on the ground before his hands separate (usually in the set). It sounds as if he met those conditions.

[JHSump]

@maven that is the way I saw it. It looked like a legal disengagement. I did not call a balk. But I had never seen such a "creative" move by a RHP, before.

 

It was a varsity HS game last night. The opposing HC acted not pleased with my call. I say "acted," because as I was trying to get off the field when the game ended, I had to exit through a gate very near their dugout, and he made a point of calmly telling me I was correct. He was probably ok with admitting that, considering they had just won by a huge margin (mercy rule, actually).

[UmpJM]

maven,

 

What about simulating a pitching motion while not engaged?

 

Might we have a balk there?

 

JM

[Replacematt]

maven,

 

What about simulating a pitching motion while not engaged?

 

Might we have a balk there?

 

JM

 

That's exactly what I pictured based on his statement.

[BalkHawk]

Rule 6, section 1, article 2,

...After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right... same as that of any infielder.

Rule 6, section 2, article 4,

Balk. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher's plate is a balk:

a. any feinting toward the batter...

d. failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery

[JHSump]

To picture it, think of a RHP in the set position, trying a pickoff at 2B by lifting his free foot up to knee level, but rotating clockwise toward 2B.  Similar to that. But, of course, he is off the rubber, in my case.

 

This was definitely the issue in my mind: is this a disengaged pitcher (infielder, no problem) with a funking turn to 2B, or a pitcher off the rubber simulating a pitch (balk).

 

It was definitely as deceptive as the set position move I just described.

 

Tonight, I read over all the Fed rules on pitching, and the casebook.  So, I saw those rules, of course.

[BalkHawk]

Umpire judgement. Was it a typical leg kick, or atypical? Was it a feint towards the batter?

[UmpJM]

BalkHawk,

 

I'm starting to think you're chosen moniker is disingenuous. 

 

Surely you can do better than that....

 

JM

[grayhawk]

My first thought was simulating a pitch off the rubber. What did he do with his hands?

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[Richvee]

Trying to picture this, the best I can visualize, if he's in a windup position, off the rubber, hands together, then lifts his non pivot foot as he would to begin a pitch, I've got balk for simulating a pitching motion off the rubber. 

[BalkHawk]

BalkHawk,

 

Surely you can do better than that....

 

JM

I'm sure I have agreed with you from the start of this thread, JuicyMomma, but I reckon you had to be there. I was deferring to him who was.

[mjr_2013]

If it's all one motion, I don't have anything. Steps off, leg up, twist, throw. Nothing, that's a pickoff.

 

OTOH, if he steps off, waits a second and is acting like he is on the rubber, THEN lifts his leg and twists, I'll balk him... He's established as off the rubber and he's simulating a pitching motion.

 

YMMV

[sdix00]

Balk, for me. The way I am envisioning the OP, F1 started with pivot foot engaged and pointing to HP, PERPENDICULAR with the rubber, then OPENS to 3B as he steps off and places his pivot foot PARALLEL to the plate and behind it. BALK! And as if that weren't good enough, he raises his leg AS IF TO PITCH, in a move completely unnecessary and unrelated to a step to 2B from off the rubber. Also a balk. 2 bases - one for each balk, right? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[UmpJM]

Public Service Announcement:

 

For those of you who do not know him, dix was kidding when he suggested 2 bases.

 

In the rest of his post, he was not kidding.

 

We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

JM

[maven]

maven,

 

What about simulating a pitching motion while not engaged?

 

Might we have a balk there?

 

JM

 

Well, we might, but as I'm thinking about the play, I wouldn't.

 

First, nothing in the rules dictates how F1 must step off the rubber, other than "step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first." In particular, nothing prohibits turning his foot as he does so. I disagree with Steve about the legality of that part of it.

 

Second, I don't regard the leg swing toward 2B as a "movement naturally associated with his pitch," generally speaking. It's going the wrong direction, for one thing, which would make it quite unnatural. (FED 6-2-5)

 

Third, a properly coached runner will never see the front leg move. Once the pivot moves back, he's headed back to the base. So I do not see that part of the move as violating the spirit of the balk rule, which aims to prohibit illegal deception.

 

So, again, as I am picturing this, I'm with @JHSump and allowing it. If I saw video of it, I might have to change my mind, and acknowledge that in the meantime there's room for intelligent umpires to disagree, perhaps rooted in different mental images of the move.

[JHSump]

I wish I had a video of the move, of course.

 

To answer a few questions... It was one continuous move.  He definitely moved his pivot foot first. placing it on the ground behind the rubber, before moving anything else.  He then brought his hands down to his waist level, together, as he picked up his left leg and swung it around clockwise, turning his whole body to the right.

 

The first runner was fooled by the move and tagged in a rundown.

 

After that the opposing coaches kept telling the runners to watch his right foot.

 

Of course, this move was clearly designed to deceive the runner.  But, it didn't work after they caught on.  I think the unusual nature of the move made it succeed at first.

 

And, of course, LHPs have moves from the set position that are also clearly designed to be deceptive.  It's just that everyone is familiar with them.

[Richvee]

 

 

To answer a few questions... It was one continuous move.  He definitely moved his pivot foot first. placing it on the ground behind the rubber, before moving anything else.  He then brought his hands down to his waist level, together, as he picked up his left leg and swung it around clockwise, turning his whole body to the right.

 

Now that's different from from what you said in the OP. Here you say he was off the rubber and swung his leg around. I'm OK with that. However, in the OP you stated 

 

 Then he lifts his left foot and leg high in the air looking to all the world like a pitch is about to begin.

 

OP sounds like a simulated pitching motion from off the rubber, this sounds like he turned and threw to 2nd from off the rubber. 

[Rich Ives]

The leg lift and turn is normal in a move to 2B from the rubber. Why does anyone think it should be illegal if done from off the rubber?

[scrounge]

The leg lift and turn is normal in a move to 2B from the rubber. Why does anyone think it should be illegal if done from off the rubber?

 

Only because it's Fed, no feints to 2b or other bases allowed from windup. Either step off first or pitch...so if the step is in anyway connected or part of another motion, it's a balk. This is definitely a gotta see it situation.

[JHSump]

@Richvee Sorry, I did not mean to negate the OP.  I was only trying to add more information.  So, to be complete, he removed his right foot from the rubber, and placed it down on the dirt behind the rubber, parallel to the rubber.  Then he lifted his left leg up, bending at the knee --- and this move was clearly designed to look like he might be pitching to the plate --- but in one continuous motion he kept turning and ending up with facing 2B and landing his left foot in that direction.  The lifting of the left leg and foot and the turn all looked very much like some RHPs do when from the set they try to pick off an R2.  The only difference was he was not on the rubber, and he had started in the windup position, before stepping off.

 

@Rich Ives That's how I basically saw it, as it happened.  In my mind, it looked like one of those moves from set, but he had already disengaged before he started anything else.  I couldn't see how to call it a balk, if such a lift and swing from the set position is not a balk.

 

Like I said, it fooled the runner.  Mainly, I think, because it was an unusual move!  And it fooled the coaches.  But, after that, they kept their eyes on his right foot.

 

Oh, and it didn't fool me.  I was in C and watched him disengage and then make the set-like move to 2B.  I was surprised by the creative/unusual nature of the move, but I very quickly caught on to what he was doing.  I think the runner just took off on the first move (with pivot foot), since he assumed (incorrectly) that the pitcher was placing his pivot foot in front of the rubber, and parallel to it.

 

A video would be better, but, of course, I don't have one.

[Replacematt]

If he looks like he's starting a pitch, it's a balk.

[grayhawk]

That's why I asked what he did with his hands. Sometimes, they will bring their hands up over their head as if in a pitching motion. If that happens, it's most certainly a balk. Keeping his hands at his waist gives him more leeway in my judgement.

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[maven]

That's why I asked what he did with his hands. Sometimes, they will bring their hands up over their head as if in a pitching motion. If that happens, it's most certainly a balk. Keeping his hands at his waist gives him more leeway in my judgement.

 

 

If he moves his hands before having disengaged, it is a start/stop balk, not a balk for making a motion naturally associated with his pitch.

[Replacematt]

 

That's why I asked what he did with his hands. Sometimes, they will bring their hands up over their head as if in a pitching motion. If that happens, it's most certainly a balk. Keeping his hands at his waist gives him more leeway in my judgement.

 

 

If he moves his hands before having disengaged, it is a start/stop balk, not a balk for making a motion naturally associated with his pitch.

 

 

I think it's fairly well established he disengaged. That's why we're focusing on how it looked.