Inside move to 2nd with runner stealing from 1st

[Guest JoeR]

Hello,

 

I've been helping coach a youth baseball team and we've been working on controlling the running game and what to do if a guy takes off early from first.

 

Here's my question: Is it a balk to use an "inside move" to second base when there is a runner on first that is stealing without stepping off? Obviously second is unoccupied and if the pitcher lifts his leg that can be interpreted as going home with the ball. Does the pitcher have to disengage the mound first? I know that he can spin and throw because that can't be seen as going to the plate at all.

 

I realize that the rules say they can throw to an unoccupied base to make a play, but I'm wondering if using the inside move to second on a steal could be considered a balk since it can be interpreted as going home.

 

Thanks!

[Mike Prince]

Yes, the pitcher can make a legal move to 2B while engaged for the purpose of making a play on the runner who is trying to steal it.  He has to gain distance with the free foot towards 2B, for the purpose of this scenario 2B is not unoccupied as soon as the runner on 1B attempts to advance to it.

[Thunderheads]

Hello,

 

I've been helping coach a youth baseball team and we've been working on controlling the running game and what to do if a guy takes off early from first.

 

Here's my question: Is it a balk to use an "inside move" to second base when there is a runner on first that is stealing without stepping off? Obviously second is unoccupied and if the pitcher lifts his leg that can be interpreted as going home with the ball. Does the pitcher have to disengage the mound first? I know that he can spin and throw because that can't be seen as going to the plate at all.

 

I realize that the rules say they can throw to an unoccupied base to make a play, but I'm wondering if using the inside move to second on a steal could be considered a balk since it can be interpreted as going home.

 

Thanks!

Joe ... forget it ..........Mike beat me to it

[noumpere]

Inside move, outside move, feint, step off, jump turn -- anything (toward second) that's legal with an R2 is legal with an R1 stealing.

[BalkHawk]

It is legal, unless the runner fakes his attempt to advance. The umpire must judge the difference between a feint to steal and a foiled stolen base.

That being said, should the runner leave early from 1st, I would teach my pitcher to disengage the rubber, then run at the runner.

[Replacematt]

It is legal, unless the runner sees the move and aborts his attempt to advance. The umpire must judge the difference between a feint to steal and a foiled stolen base.

Your first sentence is not true in any code, and your second is not true in FED.

[BalkHawk]

MLB 8.05(d)-The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

[Replacematt]

MLB 8.05(d)-The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

And how does that apply to your first sentence?

[BalkHawk]

A play at 2b cannot be made on a runner who didn't leave first. Several hard steps, or 'a big lead' does not justify a throw to an unoccupied base.

[UmpJM]

BalkHawk,

 

Unless we're playing FED rules, then the pitcher's legal even if the runner is only "feinting". And "not exactly" if we're not.

 

JoeR,

 

Excellent question. The situation you pose is specifically addressed in the 8.05 Comment in the OBR rule book:

 

(b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward

first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

JM

[BalkHawk]

MLB 8.05(d)-The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

And how does that apply to your first sentence?

I was not answering your nonsense, I was simply citing the rules.

[Replacematt]

A play at 2b cannot be made on a runner who didn't leave first. Several hard steps, or 'a big lead' does not justify a throw to an unoccupied base.

You didn't say anything about that. If the runner has an advance to abort, then he had a legitimate advance in an attempt to steal. If he's faking or taking a big lead, there's nothing to abort.

[Replacematt]

MLB 8.05(d)-The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

And how does that apply to your first sentence?I was not answering your nonsense, I was simply citing the rules. If you consider trying to get clarification from someone posting falsehoods and rules he didn't understand "nonsense."

[BalkHawk]

A play at 2b cannot be made on a runner who didn't leave first. Several hard steps, or 'a big lead' does not justify a throw to an unoccupied base.

You didn't say anything about that. If the runner has an advance to abort, then he had a legitimate advance in an attempt to steal. If he's faking or taking a big lead, there's nothing to abort.

Agree. I reworded it.

[maven]

... for the purpose of this scenario 2B is not unoccupied as soon as the runner on 1B attempts to advance to it.

 

I would not put the point this way, which seems to make a hash of the term 'unoccupied'.

 

Instead, I would emphasize that the prohibition on throwing to an unoccupied base has an exception, namely a throw for the purpose of making a play (or, for FED, driving back a runner: 6-2-4b).

[UmpJM]

maven,

 

While I concur with your point to Mike, I wouldn't say it the way you said it either.

 

Under ALL codes, IF the runner IS going, AND the Pitcher's action in making a throw or feint to 2B makes the runner "change his mind" and abort his attempted advance, the pitcher has not balked.

 

If the runner is only "feinting" an advance and the pitcher makes a feint or throw to 2B, the pitcher will have balked under OBR or NCAA, but will not have under FED.

 

Whether a runner has "feinted" an advance or "aborted" an advance is solely a matter of umpire judgment.

 

JM

[noumpere]

 

 

Whether a runner has "feinted" and advance or "aborted" an advance is solely a matter of umpire judgment.

 

JM

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- in (almost) every game we do, it's going to be an aborted advance.

[UmpJM]

noumpere,

 

That's what it looked like to me too.

 

(Probably.)

 

JM

[maven]

noumpere,

 

That's what it looked like to me too.

 

(Probably.)

 

JM

 

And in that case, post #16 is moot. Probably.

[UmpJM]

maven,

 

A fair point. But every once in a great while, you're going to run into a coach who has actually read a page or two of the rule book.

 

Best to know what it actually SAYS, what it actually MEANS, as well as how it is properly applied. You can know the last one and still get into trouble if you don't know the first two.

 

JM

[johnnyg08]

Hello,

 

I've been helping coach a youth baseball team and we've been working on controlling the running game and what to do if a guy takes off early from first.

 

Here's my question: Is it a balk to use an "inside move" to second base when there is a runner on first that is stealing without stepping off? Obviously second is unoccupied and if the pitcher lifts his leg that can be interpreted as going home with the ball. Does the pitcher have to disengage the mound first? I know that he can spin and throw because that can't be seen as going to the plate at all.

 

I realize that the rules say they can throw to an unoccupied base to make a play, but I'm wondering if using the inside move to second on a steal could be considered a balk since it can be interpreted as going home.

 

Thanks!

 

 

take all of this advice.  this is legal in all codes except if in FED your pitcher for some reason is working from the wind up.  If that's the case, yes, he must disengage.

[Jocko]

If R1 leaves while F1 is still in the stretch, someone (or EVERYONE) on his team ought to be hollering for him to step off.

Coaching 1.01 class dismissed

[noumpere]

If R1 leaves while F1 is still in the stretch, someone (or EVERYONE) on his team ought to be hollering for him to step off.

Coaching 1.01 class dismissed

Sometimes the runner goes on first move.  And, unless the pitcher has committed to the plate, he can change what he was going to do to throw to second (or if a LH to first -- you see this quite a bit).

[Guest Umpire]

I interpret this rule a bit differently. If the runner breaks BEFORE the pitcher starts his motion, then it is totally legal for him to throw to second without disengaging the rubber to make a play on the stealing runner. However, if the pitcher lifts his free foot (RH pitcher) before the runner breaks, I call a balk if he then makes an inside move to get the runner at second. Once a pitcher begins his natural motion to deliver a pitch, he must by rule complete the pitch. So unless the pitcher is clairvoyant, or he INTENDED to throw to an unoccupied bag, the pitchers intent when lifting his foot was to deliver a pitch. I might be wrong, but I can always tell coach "your pitcher started then stopped his natural delivery"

-umpire

[ALStripes17]

I interpret this rule a bit differently. If the runner breaks BEFORE the pitcher starts his motion, then it is totally legal for him to throw to second without disengaging the rubber to make a play on the stealing runner. However, if the pitcher lifts his free foot (RH pitcher) before the runner breaks, I call a balk if he then makes an inside move to get the runner at second. Once a pitcher begins his natural motion to deliver a pitch, he must by rule complete the pitch. So unless the pitcher is clairvoyant, or he INTENDED to throw to an unoccupied bag, the pitchers intent when lifting his foot was to deliver a pitch. I might be wrong, but I can always tell coach "your pitcher started then stopped his natural delivery"

-umpire

Intent is not in any of the balk rules. Your interpretation is in the MSU rule book.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, Guest Umpire said:

I interpret this rule a bit differently.

 

When F1 lifts the free foot, he's committed to throwing to the base being faced (i.e., third fro a RH pitcher), second or home.

When the free foot crosses the rubber, he's committed to throwing to second or home.

When the free foot moves forward, he's committed to throwing to home.

Words similar to that are in the NCAA book; the concept applies to all codes.