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UmpTTS43

By UmpTTS43
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BalkHawk

BalkHawk

Posted
Posted

But after the third out is made, there can't be any more infractions...

The "advantageous fourth out" is a misnomer, in my opinion, because what we're really doing is recording a different third out at the time of the infraction and negating the previously recorded third out. The infraction happened first, so the appeal of that infraction is enforced first.

Agree. There is no 4th out. In reality, it is 'the most advantageous 3rd out'.

What we've got here is the defense trying to fix their own f*** up after it is too late. If f9 or f2 or f3 or f1 or the manager/coaches was decently versed in the rules of his game, they could easily abort the play on r2 at the plate and instead throw out b/r who is writhing in agony.

Since when do we reward f*** ups?

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maven
maven

R2 made the 3rd out. An advantageous 4th out must be an appeal play. Appeals are retouch or missed base appeals. The BR not reaching 1B is neither a retouch nor a missed base, and thus the play at 1B

grayhawk
grayhawk

If wearing black or cream, allow the appeal and take the run off the board.  If wearing pro blue, score the run.  If wearing navy, then pack up and head home - you aren't smart enough to make a correc

Thunderheads
Thunderheads

what's funny is ..........regardless of where you stand on this play, ...... YOUR INTERPRETATION on the field will stand, and NO COACH ANYWHERE will know any different

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

Most of the rules that have been discussed here I cited in my argument against the ruling of taking the run off of the board. As I said, a highly debated interp with no unanimous consensus, even within the powers that be. I can post my paper if there is interest.

What I appreciate most about this discussion is, outside of a few goodhearted jabs, we have been discussing the topic at hand without insulting/berating anyone's intelligence/experience concerning the game we all love.

I am also pleased that this topic has reached 8 pages before someone had any input or opinion on umpire attire.

 

Please post your paper.

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

Apologies if somebody already posted this from WUM:

 

 

Wendelstedt Umpire Manual p 214:

 

R2, R3, two outs, no count.  The batter hits the next ball into right-center field for a base hit.  The BR injures his knee as he is running towards first base, and ends up on the ground around the 45' line.  R3 easily scores on the play, however R2 is thrown out on a close play at the plate.  The defense the notices the BR has not yet reached first base and throws the ball to  F3 who 'appeals' the play at first.  

 

Ruling:  R3's run scores.  This play at first does not qualify to become an "apparent fourth" out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not one who has missed a base, or not properly tagged up from one.  The defense could have easily prevented the run from scoring had their initial play been on the BR at first base.  Since the third out would then have been made on the BR before he reached first base, no runs could score.  This requirement of vigilance by the defense is not specific to this play in order to keep runs from scoring.  With less than two outs, the defense may be required to appeal runners in a particular sequence in order to prevent runs from scoring.  If they appeal these runners in a different order, they may risk runs being allowed to score.

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

Apologies if somebody already posted this from WUM:

 

 

Wendelsted Umpire Manual p 214:

 

R2, R3, two outs, no count.  The batter hits the next ball into right-center field for a base hit.  The BR injures his knee as he is running towards first base, and ends up on the ground around the 45' line.  R3 easily scores on the play, however R2 is thrown out on a close play at the plate.  The defense the notices the BR has not yet reached first base and throws the ball to  F3 who 'appeals' the play at first.  

 

Ruling:  R3's run scores.  This play at first does not qualify to become an "apparent fourth" out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not one who has missed a base, or not properly tagged up from one.  The defense could have easily prevented the run from scoring had their initial play been on the BR at first base.  Since the third out would then have been made on the BR before he reached first base, no runs could score.  This requirement of vigilance by the defense is not specific to this play in order to keep runs from scoring.  With less than two outs, the defense may be required to appeal runners in a particular sequence in order to prevent runs from scoring.  If they appeal these runners in a different order, they may risk runs being allowed to score.

Apology accepted.

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted

For gods sake pick the winner and give him the $100.00 !

 

There will be no winner. This is a never ending thread that haas gone on for way to long!!!

UmpTTS43

UmpTTS43

Posted
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Posted

For gods sake pick the winner and give him the $100.00 !

 

There will be no winner. This is a never ending thread that haas gone on for way to long!!!

Yet you both feel compelled to post.

I referenced what rules the NCAA will use to justify their position

Johnny, if I find my paper, I'll pm you with it.

I know Evans' stance. We have debated/argued with each other more than once.

Has anyone been able to support this interp through rule application that hasn't been debunked by us?

sdix00

sdix00

Posted
Posted

 

For gods sake pick the winner and give him the $100.00 !

 

There will be no winner. This is a never ending thread that haas gone on for way to long!!!

 

 

 

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MidAmUmp

MidAmUmp

Posted
Posted

Let me make this as simple as I can make it and I've typed slowly so every can understand...

 

In the unlikely event that you would ever have this play and you are playing under professional rules, 1 run scores and the inning ends when R2 is tagged out for the 3rd out.

 

In the unlikely event that you would ever have this play and you are playing under NCAA rules, this is an advantageous 4th out scenario, and no runs will score.

 

Professional baseball has their rule.  The NCAA has their own rule.  You don't have to like it.  You don't have to agree with it.  You just have to enforce it as your governing body proscribes, or subject yourself to losing a protest and perhaps penalties - suspension, fine, demotion, etc.

 

That's it! Pretty simple. Any discussion about if you agree or disagree or your feelings that the rule book does not support what the governing body says is irrelevant.

 

Now, hopefully a moderator will lock up this idiotic discussion.

  • Like 1
UmpTTS43

UmpTTS43

Posted
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Posted

To the best of my knowledge, no one has stated they wouldn't enforce the interpretation given out by the NCAA. We are discussing the validity of the interpretation.

We have had discussions in the past concerning other rules and mechanics and the philosophy behind them. At times, especially concerning mechanics, they change. What was once considered acceptable in other areas was taboo with the NCAA. Now the NCAA recognises some of these taboo mechanics and are now official and expected.

Why stifle debate and just go with it? Why not have an understanding of the why's behind a philosophy?

Of course you should enforce whatever a particular entity expects, but that shouldn't keep us from having discussions about rules and mechanics.

There are numerous threads that I find "idiotic" and, frankly, a waste of my time. Just because I have that view doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it and get something out of it. If I have nothing to add to a particular thread I don't. If I don't like a particular thread, I don't continue to read it. I do the same concerning radio and TV, I simply turn the channel.

Granted, it seems like discussion has run its course. If there are additional thoughts or comments posted by those that have an interest in this thread, or any other, I may respond or I may not.

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UmpTTS43

UmpTTS43

Posted
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Posted

OK. Here's the deal. If anyone thinks they have a shot at the $100 here's your chance. After this, I will consider this challenge done. If you think you have a chance, I will put it up to a vote.

If you think this thread is long since dead and/or idiotic, I don't need to hear from you.

I am still proud that we were able to have a discussion on the merits of a particular rule without personal insults.

Best wishes to you all on the upcoming season. May you stay healthy and realize your goals.

Dash Riprock

Dash Riprock

Posted
Posted

Hi Folks.

 

This is my first post here.  I was the one who posted this question on the ABUA site (sorry about that, or you're welcome, whichever applies).  I must say - the discussion here is far more provocative.

 

I am in the score the run camp.  I will try to REALLY boil it down (and add something I think is new).

 

1.  There is strong rules support for the notion that an advantageous 4th out can only result from an appeal.

2.  The only type of appeal that applies to the OP is a missed base appeal (the BR misses 1st base).

 

The BR did not "miss" 1st base.  A base must be acquired (passed) before it can be missed.

 

Consider the following.:

 

R3 one out.  The batter grounds out for the 2nd out of the inning.  R3, thinking there were two outs, heads for (and enters) his dugout on the 3rd base side.

 

Do you:

 

a.  Score the run and wait for an appeal on R3 missing the plate, or

b.  Call R3 out for abandonment?

 

Of course the answer is b.  It is not a missed base appeal because the runner never got to the base to begin with.

 

Now take the same play, but this time R3 takes off for home on the ground ball, slides in 1" short of the plate and heads for his dugout, thinking he has touched the plate.  What do you do now?  The answer is the same thing (call the runner out for abandonment without an appeal), because it is the same rule, and it applies equally whether the runner is 89 feet or one inch from the plate.

 

The only way the run does not score (absent the D ignoring R2 and playing on the BR at 1st for the 3rd out) is for the BR to be called out for desertion (the equivalent of abandonment for a BR who has not reached 1st base).  That would be a tough sell when he is still on the baseline.

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sdix00

sdix00

Posted
Posted

Hi Folks.

This is my first post here. I was the one who posted this question on the ABUA site (sorry about that, or you're welcome, whichever applies). I must say - the discussion here is far more provocative.

I am in the score the run camp. I will try to REALLY boil it down (and add something I think is new).

1. There is strong rules support for the notion that an advantageous 4th out can only result from an appeal.

2. The only type of appeal that applies to the OP is a missed base appeal (the BR misses 1st base).

The BR did not "miss" 1st base. A base must be acquired (passed) before it can be missed.

Consider the following.:

R3 one out. The batter grounds out for the 2nd out of the inning. R3, thinking there were two outs, heads for (and enters) his dugout on the 3rd base side.

Do you:

a. Score the run and wait for an appeal on R3 missing the plate, or

b. Call R3 out for abandonment?

Of course the answer is b. It is not a missed base appeal because the runner never got to the base to begin with.

Now take the same play, but this time R3 takes off for home on the ground ball, slides in 1" short of the plate and heads for his dugout, thinking he has touched the plate. What do you do now? The answer is the same thing (call the runner out for abandonment without an appeal), because it is the same rule, and it applies equally whether the runner is 89 feet or one inch from the plate.

The only way the run does not score (absent the D ignoring R2 and playing on the BR at 1st for the 3rd out) is for the BR to be called out for desertion (the equivalent of abandonment for a BR who has not reached 1st base). That would be a tough sell when he is still on the baseline.

Hi Folks.

This is my first post here. I was the one who posted this question on the ABUA site (sorry about that, or you're welcome, whichever applies). I must say - the discussion here is far more provocative.

I am in the score the run camp. I will try to REALLY boil it down (and add something I think is new).

1. There is strong rules support for the notion that an advantageous 4th out can only result from an appeal.

2. The only type of appeal that applies to the OP is a missed base appeal (the BR misses 1st base).

The BR did not "miss" 1st base. A base must be acquired (passed) before it can be missed.

Consider the following.:

R3 one out. The batter grounds out for the 2nd out of the inning. R3, thinking there were two outs, heads for (and enters) his dugout on the 3rd base side.

Do you:

a. Score the run and wait for an appeal on R3 missing the plate, or

b. Call R3 out for abandonment?

Of course the answer is b. It is not a missed base appeal because the runner never got to the base to begin with.

Now take the same play, but this time R3 takes off for home on the ground ball, slides in 1" short of the plate and heads for his dugout, thinking he has touched the plate. What do you do now? The answer is the same thing (call the runner out for abandonment without an appeal), because it is the same rule, and it applies equally whether the runner is 89 feet or one inch from the plate.

The only way the run does not score (absent the D ignoring R2 and playing on the BR at 1st for the 3rd out) is for the BR to be called out for desertion (the equivalent of abandonment for a BR who has not reached 1st base). That would be a tough sell when he is still on the baseline.

Great to see you here, Dash.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

Hi Folks.

 

This is my first post here.  I was the one who posted this question on the ABUA site (sorry about that, or you're welcome, whichever applies).  I must say - the discussion here is far more provocative.

 

I am in the score the run camp.  I will try to REALLY boil it down (and add something I think is new).

 

1.  There is strong rules support for the notion that an advantageous 4th out can only result from an appeal.

2.  The only type of appeal that applies to the OP is a missed base appeal (the BR misses 1st base).

 

The BR did not "miss" 1st base.  A base must be acquired (passed) before it can be missed.

 

Consider the following.:

 

R3 one out.  The batter grounds out for the 2nd out of the inning.  R3, thinking there were two outs, heads for (and enters) his dugout on the 3rd base side.

 

Do you:

 

a.  Score the run and wait for an appeal on R3 missing the plate, or

b.  Call R3 out for abandonment?

 

Of course the answer is b.  It is not a missed base appeal because the runner never got to the base to begin with.

 

Now take the same play, but this time R3 takes off for home on the ground ball, slides in 1" short of the plate and heads for his dugout, thinking he has touched the plate.  What do you do now?  The answer is the same thing (call the runner out for abandonment without an appeal), because it is the same rule, and it applies equally whether the runner is 89 feet or one inch from the plate.

 

The only way the run does not score (absent the D ignoring R2 and playing on the BR at 1st for the 3rd out) is for the BR to be called out for desertion (the equivalent of abandonment for a BR who has not reached 1st base).  That would be a tough sell when he is still on the baseline.

 

 

I have to say, I really like your argument here for allowing the run.  I hadn't thought of it that way before.

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