Catcher talking to the batters

[MidAmUmp]

So you would take punitive action on F2 who has broken no rules, and for the poor-sport-breakers-of-the-rule who don't even have the gamesmanship to be nonchalant about bean-balling an 8th grader you have a stern "don't do that again". Way to be proactive. If you want to put out a bean-ball warning, do it when you get the idea that it's coming not after the fact. (unless the little snot has it coming.)

I like how Matt said that for a 13u game, this would be a good time to make sure the catcher's manager knows what he is doing. The manager can warn his player about how to talk to the batters in a sporting manner.

Who is this posed to? Unless I've misread I don't see where anyone has advocated for penalizing the catcher and not the defense for throwing at the kid.

[bam]

I am with Manny, dump the pitcher, he absolutely threw at him, you had no doubt. I wouldn't have said anything to the catcher, he wasn't lying, let it go.<br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

If you dump the pitcher, why not dump the HT catcher as well?  He went out and initiated the incident.  If the HT manager wants to join them, so be it.

[BalkHawk]

@MidAmUmp - my first comment was meant for anyone who thought the rhetorical question was defensible. But now I put it to you; did you not say in post #21 that you would tell the catcher to knock it off? Then did you not say you would tell him I told you so, and that you would always warn the pitcher before getting a bean-ball ejection?

[MidAmUmp]

No...I was responding to two different comments. One was asking to justify telling the catcher to knock it off. The second I was commenting on the statement that you shouldn't issue warnings after an ejection.

This is how I would handle the situation...

I would tell the catcher to knock it off.

If he didn't stop and The other team threw at him later in the game I would eject the pitcher...and maybe the catcher at that level. Then issue warnings for the rest if the game.

Then if the catcher came back out and said he couldn't believe they hit him (as he did in the original post) I would have said I told you to knock it off.

[Jocko]

@MidAmUmp

I don't disagree with anything you said. I just am not a fan of not giving both teams the same opportunity to defend themselves. Maybe its the military in me, but I like things to work themselves out. Without intervention. Agreed its youth ball, but the laws of physics still apply. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. YMMV.

H

[MidAmUmp]

@Jocko

I don't disagree, but if you EJECT for throwing at someone, warnings must be issued for the rest of the game.  The days of an eye for an eye are over.

 

@BalkHawk

Just to elaborate a little more on my response to you (I was on my phone and it's not the easiest to reply)...

At first I would probably ignore the chatter, until I read body language of the hitters that they are getting pissed, then I would tell the catcher to stop.

 

When the 1st base coach came by and made the comment about throwing a bat at him I would have made it very clear - I'll handle the situation and if anything like that happens the player and HE will be ejected.  Also, if I hadn't addressed it with the catcher already, I would have at that time.

 

If the catcher didn't quit I would also consider talking to his coach.  I'm sure the coach wouldn't be very happy about his catcher telling the batters what is coming.

 

Then, when the catcher comes to bat and the other team's catcher goes to the mound I'd probably be very quickly on his heels following him out there.  I would tell both the pitcher and catcher, "If you do anything stupid right here, you're both done."  Now the ball's in their court.  They can decide what they are going to do, but they know what I'm going to do.

 

Hopefully by doing all of this I would have prevented them throwing at the batter.  If not and they hit the kid, the pitcher and catcher are done.

 

Maybe this will clear up what I would actually do if I was in this situation.

[noumpere]

If you tell the catcher to knock it off in the right way, then probably no one knows what went on.  Or you can let it go and get in the situation in the OP and now everyone from both sides is on the umpire's case.

 

This seems to me to be an example of what is meant by "a good umpire is one you don't notice"

[Mr Umpire]

My question is:  What if he doesn't 'knock it off'?  Then what?  And, if this is what his coach wants him to do (though I find it hard to believe his coach would want him telling pitches), you are the umpire noticed.  You just stuck your nose where it doesn't belong and the coach will probably let you know it.  I think you are in a no-win situation especially if you feel the need to do something where the rules don't apply to you doing so.  And, using the unsportsmanlike rule is a MAJOR stretch.  Nothing unsporting about distracting the batter as long as he is not doing so illegally (Here, he is not unless you want to be a red-ass).

 

I don't agree with letting things go without a warning but the OP missed the chance to send a real warning by not removing F1 and F2.  I am getting rid of both of them without a second thought.  And, one word from a coach and he will join them.  Plus, as soon as the league gets my report, a warning from them may come as well to hit this team even more for their stupidity.

 

I just don't think this is an area for an umpire to get involved in.  Disregard the age, would you interfere with a college catcher?  Again, disregard the age and think about it.  Even though these are kids, there are still adults involved who may be teaching them this.

[noumpere]

Do you think distracting the batters this way is "in accordance with the spirit of fair play"?  I don't.

 

If the coach complains I will tell him that I will protect his hitters in the same way.

 

And I honestly had college catchers in mind when I first read this.

[Mr Umpire]

How is it not "fair play"?  What is he doing which is not in accordance to the rules?  The batter has the option to not listen.  F3's talk to R1's all the time.  There are MLB videos to show that.  Should U1 be telling them to "knock it off" b/c it may be distracting R1 and he gets picked off?  What about F6 hitting his glove to attempt to get the runner to think he is coming in for a pick off? This is a very slippery slope to start down.

[Jocko]

In obr there is no verbal obs/int. Therefore they are free to say what they wish, so long as its not threatening, racially derogatory, etc.

Spirit of fair play isn't intended to address issues not covered by the rules or other bush league tactics.

But lets say you do decide to shut him down and he doesn't...what else have you got? You gonna dump F2 for not obeying? Highly doubtful.

The game is perfect. Things like this work themselves out. Let them, as long as the WRITTEN RULES aren't broken. Not some very loose interp.

Again....YMMV. I'm not saying a word unless he's crossing established lines.

[noumpere]

Agree to disagree.  In all my non-pro games even those using OBR, I'm shutting it down if it bothers the batters.

 

And F3 talking to R1 -- that's a conversation.  That's not what we're discussing here (at least its not what I'm discussing).

[Mr Umpire]

A conversation with the intent to distract is the exact same thing regardless who is saying it and what the responsibilities of the players at the moment are.  This is a conversation between F2 and the batter.  One is speaking and one is listening.  Both do not have to be speaking.

 

And, as I and Jocko said, if F2 doesn't stop, then what?

[kanedog]

In college ball, someone is going to get hurt. MidAmUmp is correct. An eye for an eye is over and we are tasked with managing the game. F 1 should have been immediately ejected for throwing at the opposing F2 but it shouldn't have come to this. Preventative umpiring could have diffused the situation.

If you are curious the 'rule' I would cite to get him to knock it off, NCAA 3-6b "b. Each umpire is an approved official of the institution, league or conference and is authorized and required to enforce each section of these rules. Further, the individual is obliged to conduct the game under conditions conducive to the highest standards of good sportsmanship. Each umpire has the authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.'

If talking to the catcher doesn't work. Tell his coach or his starting pitcher. I'm sure they won't be thrilled with F2 giving their pitches away.

[Mr Umpire]

Again, it relies on making up something just to fit the situation.  It is not unsportsmanlike to talk to the batter.  What is unsportsmanlike is the umpire sticking his nose where it doesn't belong.  If he wants to warn F2 of what may happen, fine.  But, do not pose it as a "Knock it off" statement.  And, do not try to extend a rule to fit just to make yourself sound like you know something or are itching to call something where nothing exists. 

 

When an umpire starts expanding rules where the rule does not apply, that is a slippery slope and where do you stop sliding down it.

[kanedog]

Just have your pen ready to write down all the ejections from the beanballs or coaches getting dumped. Then you will be the star of the show. THEN, everyone will ask, "why did he let it go that far?"

[Mr Umpire]

Just have your pen ready to write down all the ejections from the beanballs or coaches getting dumped. Then you will be the star of the show. THEN, everyone will ask, "why did he let it go that far?"

I guess you missed the part about EJ F1 and F2 immediately following the first time.  There will only be 2 at that point and their coach if he argues any about it.  It won't go on for very long.

 

And, when it is handled then, the stars of the show will still be the 2 players leaving the field.

[MidAmUmp]

Again, it relies on making up something just to fit the situation.  It is not unsportsmanlike to talk to the batter.  What is unsportsmanlike is the umpire sticking his nose where it doesn't belong.  If he wants to warn F2 of what may happen, fine.  But, do not pose it as a "Knock it off" statement.  And, do not try to extend a rule to fit just to make yourself sound like you know something or are itching to call something where nothing exists. 

 

When an umpire starts expanding rules where the rule does not apply, that is a slippery slope and where do you stop sliding down it.

Telling a catcher to knock it off is not enforcing a rule.  It's stopping a situation before one starts.

 

I wrote earlier that I might let it go depending on the other team's reaction.  If they are laughing and carrying on with the catcher, then fine.  BUT...if they are reacting to it in a negative way, I'm going to put a stop to it before someone gets hurt.

 

Personally, I think the other team was overreacting to what the catcher was doing...especially if he was giving them the correct pitch, but I don't get to make that decision.  I just have to maintain control of the game.

 

So in order to maintain control of the game, I'm going to tell the catcher to knock it off.  If he doesn't stop, I'm going to go to his coach and talk to him about it.  I'm going to tell the coach if he doesn't do something about it things are going to get nasty.  Is the catcher required to knock it off?  No.  Is the coach required to tell his catcher to stop?  No.  But when the catcher comes up to bat and gets hit because he didn't knock it off, I did all I could to prevent it from happening.

 

Now...let's just say that this pitcher throws a fastball at the batter's head and injures him.  When the truth gets told about what happened, would you rather defend yourself by saying I did what I could to try to stop this from happening, or would you rather say that the kid wasn't violating any rule so there wasn't anything I could do?  Because you're going to get asked why didn't you put a stop to this?  And it might just happen to be on a witness stand.  Think I'm over-exaggerating?  Google Anthony Molina and Ben Christensen and read what 2 of my friends dealt with when Christensen hit Molina in the face with a fastball.

[Mr Umpire]

Is there an article that shows there was any history?  Any conversation?  All I see is something that wasn't preventable but only by F1 as such in the OP unless there was rule violation about it.

 

Again, saying something to the F2 about how he may get hit, ok.  Saying something to the coach, ok.  And, if I get questioned, yes, my answer will be "He was not doing anything against the rules."  And, I will not lose any sleep over it b/c I was within the rules.  How the players chose to handle it is on them, not me.  Nothing to prevent b/c nothing has happened up to that point.  The only thing which can be preventable is payback from the other team.

[ricka56]

But when the VT F2 came out later to take his position, he says to me, "I can't believe they threw at me.  I was just telling them what pitch was coming."

I think the age/level of play is relevant to how to handle this. If F2 was oblivious to the trouble he was causing (as was in the OP). Clueing F2 in on the trouble he might be causing and/or letting his coach know would be appropriate. I'd rather his coach handle it than getting involved with how F2 conducts his business if he's not breaking any rules.

 

Now if its an older F2, who knows better, I'd ask/remind him about the crap he's flirting with starting. And tell him I'd take a dim view if things escalate and he'll probably be the first to go if it does. And when what happened happens, I have the following EJ's HT F1 (intentional throwing at batter), HT F2 (unsportmanlike conduct-calling for it) and VT F2 (unsportmanship conduct-I'll find a current reason).  

 

So in order to maintain control of the game, I'm going to tell the catcher to knock it off.  If he doesn't stop, I'm going to go to his coach and talk to him about it.  I'm going to tell the coach if he doesn't do something about it things are going to get nasty.  Is the catcher required to knock it off?  No.  Is the coach required to tell his catcher to stop?  No.  But when the catcher comes up to bat and gets hit because he didn't knock it off, I did all I could to prevent it from happening.

If you're telling F2 to knock it off, you're using 9.01-b ...umpire has the authority to order a player...to refrain from doing anything which affects the administrating... the penalty for not complying with 9.01-b is EJ. But you say that F2 is not required to stop and you aren't going to take any action (EJ) if he doesn't stop. The umpire has given F2 a direct order, he refused it and the umpire doesn't EJ for not complying. Hasn't that umpire lost control at this point ?

 

How can one say that he did all that he could? If 9.01-b is called for, then one shouldn't hesitate penalizing for non-compliance (EJ). Connversely, if one never intends to follow-thru with the penalty for non-compliance (no EJ) then why invoke 9.01-b.

[ump570]

 

@Texas Manny - they have EVERY right (within the confines of the rules) to handle matters themselves. They just executed poorly in that they broadcast their intentions. I'll give you an example that happened in a men's league game I was working. I had the stick. Batter hits one hard, stands at the plate yelling about how great he was and how he got ALL of it. Turned out to be a very long single, because he didn't run it out. Would've been an easy double, possibly a triple with his speed. Anyway, his next AB, 1st pitch is high and tight. A message. He looks at me and asked, "you think he did that on purpose? " to which my response was, "Do you think you deserved it?"

No warnings were issued, no EJs, and no further incident.

Let the game handle itself. Just make sure the rules are applied fairly and equitably. IOW.....Just umpire

Jocko,

 

When is pitching at a batter a RIGHT and within the confines of the rules, whether properly or poorly executed? (Rhetorical, not needing a response). I understand your thoughts. We'll just agree to disagree on how to handle this situation. I'll leave it there.

 

I agree with Jocko to an extent. In a men's league game I have no problem with teams policing themselves. One pitch high and tight lets hitter know that what he did wasn't acceptable.  However, I woudln't let it fly with players younger than 18. Now, if a pitcher is throwing at the head, and not just plunking a hitter in the back I would either EJ or warn.

[Moe]

I would have told the catcher that if he wanted to talk, don't talk during the pitch. And for 13U ball, I would be hesitant to toss a pitcher, but since this is travel ball, I would probably have tossed him. In my 13U league, the pitchers really can't pitch and hit batters are usually the cause of a mistake. But since he smiled before and missed to far inside and since it was travel ball, I would have tossed him.

[MidAmUmp]

 

But when the VT F2 came out later to take his position, he says to me, "I can't believe they threw at me.  I was just telling them what pitch was coming."

I think the age/level of play is relevant to how to handle this. If F2 was oblivious to the trouble he was causing (as was in the OP). Clueing F2 in on the trouble he might be causing and/or letting his coach know would be appropriate. I'd rather his coach handle it than getting involved with how F2 conducts his business if he's not breaking any rules.

 

Now if its an older F2, who knows better, I'd ask/remind him about the crap he's flirting with starting. And tell him I'd take a dim view if things escalate and he'll probably be the first to go if it does. And when what happened happens, I have the following EJ's HT F1 (intentional throwing at batter), HT F2 (unsportmanlike conduct-calling for it) and VT F2 (unsportmanship conduct-I'll find a current reason).  

 

So in order to maintain control of the game, I'm going to tell the catcher to knock it off.  If he doesn't stop, I'm going to go to his coach and talk to him about it.  I'm going to tell the coach if he doesn't do something about it things are going to get nasty.  Is the catcher required to knock it off?  No.  Is the coach required to tell his catcher to stop?  No.  But when the catcher comes up to bat and gets hit because he didn't knock it off, I did all I could to prevent it from happening.

If you're telling F2 to knock it off, you're using 9.01-b ...umpire has the authority to order a player...to refrain from doing anything which affects the administrating... the penalty for not complying with 9.01-b is EJ. But you say that F2 is not required to stop and you aren't going to take any action (EJ) if he doesn't stop. The umpire has given F2 a direct order, he refused it and the umpire doesn't EJ for not complying. Hasn't that umpire lost control at this point ?

 

How can one say that he did all that he could? If 9.01-b is called for, then one shouldn't hesitate penalizing for non-compliance (EJ). Connversely, if one never intends to follow-thru with the penalty for non-compliance (no EJ) then why invoke 9.01-b.

 

I work at a fairly high level and have been to 5 weeks of umpire school...I couldn't even tell you what 9.01(b) says.  I've said numerous times - Use the rule book as a guide and enfoce the rules with common sense and fair play.

 

What I'm doing by telling him to knock it off is exactly what you are advocating to JHSump in your first reply.  I'm clueing him in that what he's doing is inappropriate.  If he decides not to stop, I'm going to go to his coach and tell him about it.  If the coach feels it's "no big deal" and won't address it, then I've done all I can do, the kid's on his own.  I tried to clue him and his coach in and they are both clueless.

 

Let's say the catcher doesn't knock it off and I eject the player for not complying with 9.01(b) because he did not refrain from doing something that affected my administration, and I write it up that way.  Do you know what my supervisors are going to ask?  They'll ask, couldn't you have just told him to knock it off?  Couldn't you have talked to his coach?  When I tell them I enforced 9.01(b) as written, they're going to tell me to use some common sense.

[Mudder]

To me a player should not be talking directly to an opposing player while the ball is in play.  I probably would have let it go for a bit, but once I see the batters start to get annoyed by it, and definitely when a coach mentions it,  I would stop it. There is no need for it.

 

F2 says "why'd they throw at me, I was just telling them what pitch was coming", oh I see you're just being Mr nice guy by helping your opponents trying to hit the ball? ya right, its a form of trash talking plain and simple, trying to get in their heads, just stop it.

[ricka56]

...I couldn't even tell you what 9.01(b) says.  I've said numerous times - Use the rule book as a guide and enfoce the rules with common sense and fair play.

 

You don’t need to be a rules guru to know what 9.01(b) means. Every umpire should know that if his game has gotten so bad that he has to order players/coaches to do/not do things, then they had better comply or else face the consequences. My point was that if F2 intentionally blows off an umpire’s directive, then that is bad. And if an umpire never intends to enforce his directive, then he may have put himself in an untenable position.

 

If F2 is unaware that he’s F’ing with the other team, then simply clueing him in should fix the problem immediately. Doing it this way lets F2 think it was his idea to quit and he’s not being ordered to do something (that the umpire has no intention of enforcing). And it’s more likely to enhance their rapport, versus possibly damaging it.

 

Now if F2 is F'ing with them intentionally, then I’m going to his coach to see if he can help me out...that should be fun.

 

I don’t think our preventive umpiring approach to this sitch is that far apart. We’re both being pro-active trying to keep this from escalating. And despite our best efforts, sometimes, boys will be boys.