Out or safe? Having a hard time finding the answer

[CodyLoe15]

Pro Rules except,for college slide rule(I don't believe applies because of the location of the play), R3, and one out.  Deep fly to F7 and he fires it in to F2 who is up the 3rd base line about 10 ft.  F2 fields and applies a tag as R3 is sprinting by the tag hits the player in the shoulder and both R3 and F2 end up on the ground while the ball has rolled to the backstop.  I called R3 safe after he touched the plate.

[Texas Manny]

Not a force play. NCAA Force Out Slide rule shouldn't apply. Runner is safe. Catcher dropped the ball.

[noumpere]

O

 

Not a force play. NCAA Force Out Slide rule shouldn't apply. Runner is safe. Catcher dropped the ball.

 

Of course its not a force play.  But there is also the NCAA collision rule that comes into play here.  The runner did not violate the rule as I read it so safe is the right call.

[johnnyg08]

Did R3 attempt to dislodge the baseball?  

 

NCAA Collision Rule:

 

 

Collision Rule

SECTION 7. The rules committee is concerned about unnecessary and violent collisions with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such collisions whenever possible.

When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:

If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate). Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate.

(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).

PENALTY—If the runner attempts to dislodge the ball or initiates an avoidable collision, the runner shall be declared out, even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder. Contact above the waist shall be judged by the umpire as an attempt by the runner to dislodge the ball.

PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious before the runner touches the plate, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base without colliding.

PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious after the runner touches the base (plate), the runner is safe, but is ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. If this occurs at any base other than home, the offending team may replace the runner.

If the contact occurs after a preceding runner touches home plate, the preceding runner is safe. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the contact.

(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2) and (3) are fulfilled, it is considered unavoidable contact (see Rule 2-54, Obstruction). 

[Rich Ives]

Factor 2 is silly - two people colliding upright as in the OP creates an out just because contact was above the waist?

[CodyLoe15]

To clear any confusion up R3 did nothing molicious he simply was running and was tagged.  Yes they collided, and yes they both ended up on the ground however nothing malicious happened.  R3 was on the just to the foul side of the 3rd baseline and F2 was actually a few feet within fair territory.  When he fielded the ball he had to take a stide and a very quick movement to apply the tag.  I hope that those points make the situation a little more clear.

[Texas Manny]

O

 

Not a force play. NCAA Force Out Slide rule shouldn't apply. Runner is safe. Catcher dropped the ball.

 

Of course its not a force play.  But there is also the NCAA collision rule that comes into play here.  The runner did not violate the rule as I read it so safe is the right call.

From the data I found, the collision rule is on the bottom of the force rule. That's why I said "Not a force play."

 

Don't be a wiseguy.

[johnnyg08]

Factor 2 is silly - two people colliding upright as in the OP creates an out just because contact was above the waist?

I don't write 'em.

[noumpere]

 

O

 

Not a force play. NCAA Force Out Slide rule shouldn't apply. Runner is safe. Catcher dropped the ball.

 

Of course its not a force play.  But there is also the NCAA collision rule that comes into play here.  The runner did not violate the rule as I read it so safe is the right call.

From the data I found, the collision rule is on the bottom of the force rule. That's why I said "Not a force play."

 

Don't be a wiseguy.

 

The FPSR is (well, was a couple of years ago and if the nubers have changed the relevant points haven't) 8-4.  The collision rule is 8-7.

 

Your the only one who thought to raise the FPSR.

[mstaylor]

Sounds like the catcher initiated the contact so it is nothing. I agree it is a dumb way to write the rule. Sounds like another case where the umpires were not calling MC so the NCAA took the judgement out so they had to call it. <br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[CodyLoe15]

What I am getting from everyone's replies is that I made the correct call.  However in the original post I said the FPSR is not applied because of the location of the play.  That I can now understand to be completely incorrect.  The FPSR was a factor only in determining whether I had MC or not.  Sound about right? 

[bam]

What I am getting from everyone's replies is that I made the correct call.  However in the original post I said the FPSR is not applied because of the location of the play.  That I can now understand to be completely incorrect.  The FPSR was a factor only in determining whether I had MC or not.  Sound about right? 

The "location" of the play does not negate the FPSR.  It can be called at any base, including home, as long as it's a force play. 

[noumpere]

 

What I am getting from everyone's replies is that I made the correct call.  However in the original post I said the FPSR is not applied because of the location of the play.  That I can now understand to be completely incorrect.  The FPSR was a factor only in determining whether I had MC or not.  Sound about right? 

The "location" of the play does not negate the FPSR.  It can be called at any base, including home, as long as it's a force play. 

 

Right.  Which this wasn't.  And the OP said nothing about the FPSR - it just said "slide rule" so given the situation most of the replies correctly went to the collision rule.

[noumpere]

Factor 2 is silly - two people colliding upright as in the OP creates an out just because contact was above the waist?

I don't get that from the OP.  The rule applies when the catcher has the ball (true) and is blocking the plate (not true) and the runner contacts the torso / head (not true -- he was hit by a swipe tag).

 

there also can be some exceptions to this depending on how the play develops.

[Jocko]

I got a "That's nothing. Safe" and here's why...F2 initiated the contact. He stepped to the runner. R3 was making a legit attempt at the base and didn't initiate contact.

[mstaylor]

The OP mentions the college slide rule. The FPSR obviously is only in effect during a a force play, which this is not. However, as correctly pointed out, there is a second part to the NCAA slide rule, which is actually a contact rule. Again as correctly pointed out, it doesn't apply here either. 

[Rich Ives]

 

Factor 2 is silly - two people colliding upright as in the OP creates an out just because contact was above the waist?

I don't get that from the OP.  The rule applies when the catcher has the ball (true) and is blocking the plate (not true) and the runner contacts the torso / head (not true -- he was hit by a swipe tag).

 

there also can be some exceptions to this depending on how the play develops.

 

 

It doesn't say just at the plate.  It doesn't say torso/head.

 

The rule says:

 

"If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate).  Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate."

[noumpere]

I know what it says and I know what it means.  It wont be applied on a swipe tag even if the hand is above the waist.  The rule does not apply or come into effect on the OP.

 

Maybe were talking about different things.

[Fittske24]

Factor 2 is silly - two people colliding upright as in the OP creates an out just because contact was above the waist?

 

This is not how this part of the rule is applied. You have have to read the factors takinging into account the main part of the of the rule which is:

 

(NCAA 8-7) When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball...

 

This means contact above the waist while the catcher is in clear possesion of the ball is determined to be flagrent IF the contact was judged by the umpire to have been avoidable.

 

Contact alone above the waist is not an outomatic out.