Jump to content

Balk, or legal pick off move?

JHSump

By JHSump
in Rules

 Share
Umpire-Empire locks topics which have not been active in the last year. The thread you are viewing hasn't been active in 4766 days so you will not be able to post. We do recommend you starting a new topic to find out what's new in the world of umpiring.

Recommended Posts

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

You can step immediately.  You cant lift your leg and then step no matter where the free foot goes during the lift.  All of us can recognize the difference.

  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

mstaylor
mstaylor

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I

mstaylor
mstaylor

This is a good discussion and exactly why boards like this exist. A healthy discussion of rules without flaming. 

BigUmp56
BigUmp56

He's actually commited to either the plate or third base in the picture. He cannot lift his knee to balance and turn to throw to first legally. Remember that one of the basic premises for balks is tha

Posted Images

BigUmp56

BigUmp56

Posted
Posted

You can step immediately.  You cant lift your leg and then step no matter where the free foot goes during the lift.  All of us can recognize the difference.

Not all of us recognize the difference, because I have no idea why you think any lifting of the leg causes a balk in the scenario we've been discussing. A move to first with a leg lift is shown to be a legal move in the Evans Balk video. You're perpetuating a common myth about a RHP move to first.

Tim.

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

If this isn't a balk, then MLB pitchers would be doing this all day long.  If you lift that knee and then swing and throw to first, I am calling a balk and explaining that F1 made a move to home before throwing to first.

  • Like 1
grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

 

You can step immediately.  You cant lift your leg and then step no matter where the free foot goes during the lift.  All of us can recognize the difference.

Not all of us recognize the difference, because I have no idea why you think any lifting of the leg causes a balk in the scenario we've been discussing. A move to first with a leg lift is shown to be a legal move in the Evans Balk video. You're perpetuating a common myth about a RHP move to first.

Tim.

 

 

Tim, the move in the Evans video is not the move as described in the OP.  Neither Evans (nor his demonstrator, Steve) lifted their knee.  Their move was more of a "pivot" with the free foot and then step to first.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

I don't think the horse is dead yet, but I could be wrong.

 

Yes, you may lift the foot and thus the leg. The issue concerns what happens next.

 

If the foot and leg go up and/or back (toward 2B), then you may not legally throw to 1B.

 

If the lifted foot goes immediately and directly to 1B, then you have complied with 8.05(c ).

  • Like 1
JHSump

JHSump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Well, I had the pitcher in my OP in a tournament game last night, called a balk on the move in my OP, and had to eject an AC, post game.

 

While this is not an ejection thread, here are some of the details as they are related to this thread.

 
In the very first inning, with an R1, this pitcher tried the pickoff move described in the OP.  I called it a balk.  There were no rumbles from the bench, but the Manager and an AC asked about it between innings.  I simply told them he did not step directly to 1B.  The manager said OK, but the AC said it had not been called previously in the tournament.  I just repeated my explanation and said, "Coach, it's a balk."  The discussion ended.
 
Throughout the game the AC was clearly perturbed by this balk call.  Between innings I saw him demonstrate a leg kick a few times to others in the dugout, like he was discussing the whole thing.  Then, when the opposing team put in a LHP, and that LHP made the standard LHP move to 1B --- right left lift, step toward 1B, throw --- the AC called out to his manager (who was in the 3B coach's box), "See, he did it."
 
When the game ended, before my partner and I could leave the field, and as players were lining up to shake hands, the AC yelled at me from the entrance to the 3B dugout.  Pointing his finger at me, he yelled, "You're horrible. You don't know what a balk is."  I ejected him.  He than ran out to me, stopped in front of me and kicked dirt on me repeatedly.  He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."  I said nothing.  My partner and I left the field.
grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."

 

That's funny.  You NEVER see this move in MLB.  Wonder why that is?

Mike Prince

Mike Prince

Posted
Posted

 

Well, I had the pitcher in my OP in a tournament game last night, called a balk on the move in my OP, and had to eject an AC, post game.

 

While this is not an ejection thread, here are some of the details as they are related to this thread.

 
In the very first inning, with an R1, this pitcher tried the pickoff move described in the OP.  I called it a balk.  There were no rumbles from the bench, but the Manager and an AC asked about it between innings.  I simply told them he did not step directly to 1B.  The manager said OK, but the AC said it had not been called previously in the tournament.  I just repeated my explanation and said, "Coach, it's a balk."  The discussion ended.
 
Throughout the game the AC was clearly perturbed by this balk call.  Between innings I saw him demonstrate a leg kick a few times to others in the dugout, like he was discussing the whole thing.  Then, when the opposing team put in a LHP, and that LHP made the standard LHP move to 1B --- right left lift, step toward 1B, throw --- the AC called out to his manager (who was in the 3B coach's box), "See, he did it."
 
When the game ended, before my partner and I could leave the field, and as players were lining up to shake hands, the AC yelled at me from the entrance to the 3B dugout.  Pointing his finger at me, he yelled, "You're horrible. You don't know what a balk is."  I ejected him.  He than ran out to me, stopped in front of me and kicked dirt on me repeatedly.  He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."  I said nothing.  My partner and I left the field.

 

 

AC must have been the offending F!'s dad and taught him this move.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

 

He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."

 

That's funny.  You NEVER see this move in MLB.  Wonder why that is?

 

Because it is a very slow move that the runners will read days ahead of the ball. Even if a MLB pulls it off legally, highly unlikely, an experienced runner would be back standing. Same move with a low step he would get picked but because pitching coaches don't read rulebooks any more than their coaches did, they don't even know it is possible. 

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

 

 

He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."

 

That's funny.  You NEVER see this move in MLB.  Wonder why that is?

 

Because it is a very slow move that the runners will read days ahead of the ball. Even if a MLB pulls it off legally, highly unlikely, an experienced runner would be back standing. Same move with a low step he would get picked but because pitching coaches don't read rulebooks any more than their coaches did, they don't even know it is possible. 

 

 

I don't buy it Mike.  An R1 goes when a RHP raises his free foot in the air (bending his knee).  If a RHP could freeze R1 with a raised knee until he actually steps home, there would be no reason for the slide step because R1 could not commit to the steal until F1 started home.  It's not done in MLB because pitchers know it will be balked.

  • Like 1
Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."

 

That's funny.  You NEVER see this move in MLB.  Wonder why that is?

 

Because it is a very slow move that the runners will read days ahead of the ball. Even if a MLB pulls it off legally, highly unlikely, an experienced runner would be back standing. Same move with a low step he would get picked but because pitching coaches don't read rulebooks any more than their coaches did, they don't even know it is possible. 

 

 

I don't buy it Mike.  An R1 goes when a RHP raises his free foot in the air (bending his knee).  If a RHP could freeze R1 with a raised knee until he actually steps home, there would be no reason for the slide step because R1 could not commit to the steal until F1 started home.  It's not done in MLB because pitchers know it will be balked.

 

 

 

The jump spin is a lot quicker. That's why it's used.

 

I guess not too many of the participants are old enough to remember when the step-to-first was the normal pick move.

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

 

The jump spin is a lot quicker. That's why it's used.

 

I guess not too many of the participants are old enough to remember when the step-to-first was the normal pick move.

 

 

Yes, the jump spin is quicker, but less deceptive.  If F1 could lift his knee and then turn to his left and step to first, it would be a great move to mix in with his other moves to keep R1 from getting a good jump.

sdix00

sdix00

Posted
Posted

Sorry if someone answered this already, but I am on my phone and couldn't read the whole thread. 

 

I'll just leave this here. 

 

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted
Sorry if someone answered this already, but I am on my phone and couldn't read the whole thread. I'll just leave this here.
Enough said! Close the thread!!!!
noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

The above two posts are exactly what I am saying.  The first one from evans has a leg lift and is a balk.  The second from you tube has an immediate step and is legal.

carolinablue

carolinablue

Posted
Posted

I can't see the videos right now. I'm at work and they may answer my question but I'll ask anyway.

 

I'm not arguing that this move shouldn't be a balk, if it is it is and I will call it but you do need to understand what your calling so.

 

A RHP from the set position lifts his leg to the balance point ( I guess is the right term ) and then turns/spins and steps and throws to 1B. It is being said that is a balk because it's not a direct step.

 

A RHP from the set position does the exact same leg lift and steps and throws to 3B and that's legal. What's the difference? If it's not a direct step to 1B, wouldn't it not be a direct step to 3rd also? I have read all the posts but just ain't getting it. :unsure:

JHSump

JHSump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

 

Well, I had the pitcher in my OP in a tournament game last night, called a balk on the move in my OP, and had to eject an AC, post game.

 

While this is not an ejection thread, here are some of the details as they are related to this thread.

 
In the very first inning, with an R1, this pitcher tried the pickoff move described in the OP.  I called it a balk.  There were no rumbles from the bench, but the Manager and an AC asked about it between innings.  I simply told them he did not step directly to 1B.  The manager said OK, but the AC said it had not been called previously in the tournament.  I just repeated my explanation and said, "Coach, it's a balk."  The discussion ended.
 
Throughout the game the AC was clearly perturbed by this balk call.  Between innings I saw him demonstrate a leg kick a few times to others in the dugout, like he was discussing the whole thing.  Then, when the opposing team put in a LHP, and that LHP made the standard LHP move to 1B --- right left lift, step toward 1B, throw --- the AC called out to his manager (who was in the 3B coach's box), "See, he did it."
 
When the game ended, before my partner and I could leave the field, and as players were lining up to shake hands, the AC yelled at me from the entrance to the 3B dugout.  Pointing his finger at me, he yelled, "You're horrible. You don't know what a balk is."  I ejected him.  He than ran out to me, stopped in front of me and kicked dirt on me repeatedly.  He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."  I said nothing.  My partner and I left the field.

 

 

AC must have been the offending F!'s dad and taught him this move.

 

Yes, he is the F1's dad --- same last name.  It's a good guess that the dad is the architect of the move.

JHSump

JHSump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Sorry if someone answered this already, but I am on my phone and couldn't read the whole thread. 

 

I'll just leave this here. 

 

'>
mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

Jax, I agree that is a balk, which is why I don't suggest teaching the move. The move in the Evans video has him dropping his leg committing him to the plate, then swung to first. This is why I concede that doing this is near impossible to do and why it is so slow. It is not a good move and 99% of the time a balk. We do not disagree. 

catsbackr

catsbackr

Posted
Posted

 

Well, I had the pitcher in my OP in a tournament game last night, called a balk on the move in my OP, and had to eject an AC, post game.

 

While this is not an ejection thread, here are some of the details as they are related to this thread.

 
In the very first inning, with an R1, this pitcher tried the pickoff move described in the OP.  I called it a balk.  There were no rumbles from the bench, but the Manager and an AC asked about it between innings.  I simply told them he did not step directly to 1B.  The manager said OK, but the AC said it had not been called previously in the tournament.  I just repeated my explanation and said, "Coach, it's a balk."  The discussion ended.
 
Throughout the game the AC was clearly perturbed by this balk call.  Between innings I saw him demonstrate a leg kick a few times to others in the dugout, like he was discussing the whole thing.  Then, when the opposing team put in a LHP, and that LHP made the standard LHP move to 1B --- right left lift, step toward 1B, throw --- the AC called out to his manager (who was in the 3B coach's box), "See, he did it."
 
When the game ended, before my partner and I could leave the field, and as players were lining up to shake hands, the AC yelled at me from the entrance to the 3B dugout.  Pointing his finger at me, he yelled, "You're horrible. You don't know what a balk is."  I ejected him.  He than ran out to me, stopped in front of me and kicked dirt on me repeatedly.  He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."  I said nothing.  My partner and I left the field.

 

 

 

Really?  What did the league do to the AC?  Or, is this a common occurence?  Either this AC would be all done or I would be.

JHSump

JHSump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

 

Well, I had the pitcher in my OP in a tournament game last night, called a balk on the move in my OP, and had to eject an AC, post game.

 

While this is not an ejection thread, here are some of the details as they are related to this thread.

 
In the very first inning, with an R1, this pitcher tried the pickoff move described in the OP.  I called it a balk.  There were no rumbles from the bench, but the Manager and an AC asked about it between innings.  I simply told them he did not step directly to 1B.  The manager said OK, but the AC said it had not been called previously in the tournament.  I just repeated my explanation and said, "Coach, it's a balk."  The discussion ended.
 
Throughout the game the AC was clearly perturbed by this balk call.  Between innings I saw him demonstrate a leg kick a few times to others in the dugout, like he was discussing the whole thing.  Then, when the opposing team put in a LHP, and that LHP made the standard LHP move to 1B --- right left lift, step toward 1B, throw --- the AC called out to his manager (who was in the 3B coach's box), "See, he did it."
 
When the game ended, before my partner and I could leave the field, and as players were lining up to shake hands, the AC yelled at me from the entrance to the 3B dugout.  Pointing his finger at me, he yelled, "You're horrible. You don't know what a balk is."  I ejected him.  He than ran out to me, stopped in front of me and kicked dirt on me repeatedly.  He yelled, "You need to watch MLB and learn what a balk is."  I said nothing.  My partner and I left the field.

 

 

 

Really?  What did the league do to the AC?  Or, is this a common occurence?  Either this AC would be all done or I would be.

 

"What did the league do to the AC?"

 

This is a double-elimination tournament, and his team lost that game, which was their second loss.  So, he is certainly done for the tournament and the rest of the all-star season.  Any consequences beyond that are being discussed within the organization.

JHSump

JHSump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Found this:

 

So much for "You need to watch MLB..."  Thanks for the find!

 

The F1 in the MLB video used less of a leg lift than the F1 in my OP and the game where I called the balk.

 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...