When does a pitch end?

[jkumpire]

Had an interesting play the other day that revolved around this question. Whatever rule code you wish to use is fine.

 

 

[24sdad]

FED 2-28-4

 

A pitch ends when the pitched ball:

 

a. is secured by the catcher,

b. comes to rest,

c. goes out of play,

d. becomes dead,

e. or the batter hits the ball (other than a foul tip).

[mstaylor]

24 has a good list, although I question his foul tip qualifier. To be a foul tip it has to be secured by the catcher, when that happens the pitch has ended. 

[johnnyg08]

Had an interesting play the other day that revolved around this question. Whatever rule code you wish to use is fine.

 

What's the scenario?  

[noumpere]

 

Had an interesting play the other day that revolved around this question. Whatever rule code you wish to use is fine.

 

What's the scenario?  

 

I hope it's not the "pitch bounces of the catcher and hits the batter so should the batter get first base" old saw.

[UmpJM]

Michael,

 

24 has a good list, although I question his foul tip qualifier. To be a foul tip it has to be secured by the catcher, when that happens the pitch has ended. 

 

It's verbatim from the FED Rule 2 definition of a pitch.

 

The foul tip "exception" is just typical FED idiocy and should be ignored.

 

The "pitch" ends as soon as the ball hits the bat, even should it ultimately prove to be a foul tip.

 

JM

[24sdad]

24 has a good list, although I question his foul tip qualifier. To be a foul tip it has to be secured by the catcher, when that happens the pitch has ended. 

Michael, good catch.  Yes, it was a quick "cut and paste" and I did not even notice the foul tip exception.

 

JM, good clarification.

[BalkHawk]

A ball tipped straight and direct into F2's glove or hand can then be bobbled.

If it is secured, it becomes a foul tip, at which time the pitch has ended.

If it is subsequently dropped instead, it becomes a foul ball. Now the pitch is retroactively ended at the time the ball hit the bat.

Still, I'm not sure what I am arguing, or why it may be important...

[Rich Ives]

A ball tipped straight and direct into F2's glove or hand can then be bobbled.

If it is secured, it becomes a foul tip, at which time the pitch has ended.

If it is subsequently dropped instead, it becomes a foul ball. Now the pitch is retroactively ended at the time the ball hit the bat.

Still, I'm not sure what I am arguing, or why it may be important...

 

It's a batted ball. Whether it becomes a foul tip or a foul ball doesn't matter. It's now a batted ball, not a pitch. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

[BalkHawk]

What was the play around which the question posed in the OP revolves, if you please?

[UmpJM]

I'm sticking with Rich's story as well.

 

JM

[BalkHawk]

Whether it becomes a foul tip or a foul ball doesn't matter.

Except that one is a live ball and one is dead.

[UmpJM]

BalkHawk,

 

ALL caught fouls remain in play.

 

A foul tip is no different from any other caught foul ball in that regard.

 

JM

[BalkHawk]

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

[maven]

Huh? Pop-up to F5 in the coaching box that he catches? Seems like a caught foul ball to me...
 
A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base,
or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory,
or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul terri-
tory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

[UmpJM]

BalkHawk,

 

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

JM

[NFUA_44]

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

You need to re-think this statement brother.

 

If F9 caught a ball that was 20ft. to the foul side in the back corner of RF, your saying that R3 can't tag up and score since there is no such thing as a caught foul ball?

[BalkHawk]

 

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

You need to re-think this statement brother.

 

If F9 caught a ball that was 20ft. to the foul side in the back corner of RF, your saying that R3 can't tag up and score since there is no such thing as a caught foul ball?

 

 

That's not what I said, AT ALL.

I said if a ball is hit to deep right field, where F9 is camped under it, 20 ft into foul territory, it is not a foul ball yet. If a rogue blast of breeze should push that ball back into fair territory where it lands, it ain't a foul ball, indeed it never were.

BalkHawk,

 

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

JM

 

 

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A foul fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the infielder is on foul or fair territory at the time he touches the ball.

Rule 2.00 (Foul Ball) Comment: A batted ball not touched by a fielder, which hits the pitchers rubber and rebounds into foul territory, between home and first, or between home and third base is a foul ball.

 

FOUL TERRITORY is that part of the playing field outside the first and third base lines extended to the fence and perpendicularly upwards.

 

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catchers hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catchers glove or hand.

 

PROVE IT.

[Rich Ives]

BalkHawk,

 

The ball does not become foul until it is not caught. There's no such thing as a "caught foul ball". Only a "foul tip" or a ball-in-flight which can either be caught or become foul.

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

JM

 

 

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A foul fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the infielder is on foul or fair territory at the time he touches the ball.

Rule 2.00 (Foul Ball) Comment: A batted ball not touched by a fielder, which hits the pitchers rubber and rebounds into foul territory, between home and first, or between home and third base is a foul ball.

 

FOUL TERRITORY is that part of the playing field outside the first and third base lines extended to the fence and perpendicularly upwards.

 

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catchers hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catchers glove or hand.

 

PROVE IT.

 

 

 

Prove what?  It says right in the definition that it's foul if it touches a player while over foul ground.  The catch it you have to touch it. It was caught over foul ground. Therefore it was touched over foul ground. So it's foul.  How can you dispute that?

[Richvee]

This is pretty silly 

[Rich Ives]

This is pretty silly 

 

Have you noticed a few of BalkHawk's recently expressed beliefs?

[Richvee]

 

This is pretty silly 

 

Have you noticed a few of BalkHawk's recently expressed beliefs?

 

Yes. But this belief trumps them all, IMO. 

[BalkHawk]

This is pretty silly

Have you noticed a few of BalkHawk's recently expressed beliefs?

Yes. But this belief trumps them all, IMO. These weak and fallacious arguments are thinly veiled argumentum ad hominem. This is a millenias-old troll tactic. If my argument is weak, you should have no problem refuting it. If it is silly, you might consider not wasting your keystokes. If you think it's cool to jump on JM's back because he is a stronger umpire than yourself and hurl pop shots without giving any reason, I say you are a coward.

Ad hominem

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2]Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.[6]

I will respond to Richvee's previous post:

I believe the definition of a foul ball makes a reference to the ball touching a player (or umpire) instead of the player touching the ball on purpose. In the definition of a catch, there are two references to a fielder touching a ball (with his glove) when, in Rich's opinion, the writers could have just as easily said 'ball touches player' (BUT THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT!!!)

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.

If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is held up and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

[PonyUmpire]

It would seem to me that we are just arguing semantics, but: 5.09 (e) - (paraphrase) The ball is dead when there is a foul ball that is not caught. There would be no need to make the "is not caught" qualification if foul balls were uncaught by definition.

[maven]

Balkhawk, you deny the existence of a caught foul ball. But clearly, a fielder can stand in foul territory and catch a fly ball. So, you must deny either that this is a catch or that it is a foul ball.

 

By the rules you quote, however, the play meets the definitions of CATCH and FOUL BALL. Your distinction in this context between a ball that touches a player and a player touching a ball has no basis in the rules, any published interpretation at any level, or the traditions of the game.

 

No printed resource will support you, no rules interpreter will support you. You're betting against the world here.