Catcher turns to argue srtrike zone

[Sayhey]

I am looking for advice on game management. I had my second catcher in 20 years turn on me and argue strike zone. The first one was 15 years ago and I immediately ejected him because he held his glove where he caught the ball as he turned and bitched about the no strike call. The physical movement meant the end of his day.

This one the other night was different. This catcher turned and argued the call but made no other body language displays and he was not loud. I called time and swept off a clean plate and I told him not to turn on an umpire. Then I told him his actions were not helping his team. Is the latter part over a line and not helpful. I never heard another word from him and his coach never said a word except to tell me I was welcome back any time as I walked off the diamond. It was the first time I had worked for him. How have you handled catcher's turning on you?

[Thunderheads]

The only thing I've ever experienced was an honest question.....  "blue, where was that sir?"   or ....   Is that in blue?  etc...etc....

 

As long as he isn't being boisterous or trying to show you up, ... I'm going to keep him and answer his question.  If it's something you can't finish quickly, call time and dust off the plate like you did and answer him. 

[mjr_2013]

If he is in his crouch I will give him a lot of lee way. He will get away with saying some things I wouldn't allow a coach or player to say to my face because he obviously isn't trying to show me up. If it gets out of hand of course I'll brush the plate and take care of it, but that's beside the point.

 

If he stands and turns around, all of that lee way is gone, he is treated like any other player, and will likely be gone before he gets a second sentence out.

[Mike Prince]

Depends on age. If this is a 9U first-time catcher he will get a much different reaction than a HS V catcher.

In this case he wasn't asking a question, he was arguing balls and strikes. I would have given him a "that's enough, let's play", just like I would a coach. Depending on age, at the next opportunity (cleaning the plate or warm-ups) I am telling him he can't argue ball and strike calls. If he is younger, he gets the secondary conversation. If he is older he should know better and the next occurrence his day will be over.

[MidAmUmp]

I agree that it all depends on the age/level of play.  It also depends on your level of experience...a veteran umpire (in that league) can get away with more than a newer umpire.

 

A firm conversation would be appropriate.  At the HS level and beyond, something like this would be appropriate: "We're going to get something straight right now.  You're going to catch the ball and throw it back to the pitcher.  I'm going to call the pitch.  You're going to keep facing forward and your mouth shut.  If you turn around and question another pitch, you're done.  Do you understand?"

 

At the younger levels I would probably start off with a "Don't turn around" or "Don't do that" first.

 

Also, I find I have fewer problems with catchers even questioning pitches if I give the location on close pitches.  I will say Ball, then turn my head towards the dugout and say "That's out" or "That's in".  By doing this I very seldom ever have a catcher ask about a pitch.  I'll get an occasional "that's a pretty good pitch" but that's about it.

 

Finally, I have no objection to telling a catcher when I miss one.  As long as I'm not saying it every inning.  If my timing gets quick, etc. and I miss one I'll immediately tell the catcher that I missed it and I'll get it next time.  But again, you'd better be pretty good back there and not miss very many to get away with that. 

[maven]

I handle this situation by calling so many strikes, catchers never complain. :D

[Dannytheman]

I happen to agree wit almost everything here. You know it when you see it. In the practise season, I meet with my leagues managers and team and this is something I go over. How I communicate to catchers and sometimes using the catcher to communicate to pitcher for me.

Saturday afternoon I was working a game and a kid was pitching and making the face they make after they think I gave them a bad call, the fact that he had thrown 6 balls in the dirt, and 8 pitched over my head meant nothing to him. But when he was 2 balls inside he wanted those. So he started looking with the face to the manager, and clapping his hands like "How could you call that a ball"?

Time for me to clean the plate, tell the catcher to go talk to his pitcher and let him kno to knock it off.  Private, quiet and effective.

[Sayhey]

Thanks guys for the wise words. Good stuff. This was a sophomore catcher catching on a Friday night with full stands. First time I saw him so I gave him the benifit of sought. I do not know if he was ignorant or if he had a bad attitude. I think it was ignorance. Best high school ball team in a town of 100,000. He should no better.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I agree that it all depends on the age/level of play.  It also depends on your level of experience...a veteran umpire (in that league) can get away with more than a newer umpire.

 

A firm conversation would be appropriate.  At the HS level and beyond, something like this would be appropriate: "We're going to get something straight right now.  You're going to catch the ball and throw it back to the pitcher.  I'm going to call the pitch.  You're going to keep facing forward and your mouth shut.  If you turn around and question another pitch, you're done.  Do you understand?"

 

At the younger levels I would probably start off with a "Don't turn around" or "Don't do that" first.

 

Also, I find I have fewer problems with catchers even questioning pitches if I give the location on close pitches.  I will say Ball, then turn my head towards the dugout and say "That's out" or "That's in".  By doing this I very seldom ever have a catcher ask about a pitch.  I'll get an occasional "that's a pretty good pitch" but that's about it.

 

Finally, I have no objection to telling a catcher when I miss one.  As long as I'm not saying it every inning.  If my timing gets quick, etc. and I miss one I'll immediately tell the catcher that I missed it and I'll get it next time.  But again, you'd better be pretty good back there and not miss very many to get away with that. 

Do you also call "Strike, right down the middle!" ??  IMHO, Color commentary is meant for the play by play announcers, not the umpires.  If its NOT in the strike zone, it was obviously in the BALL zone.

[MidAmUmp]

Have you ever had a team ask you where a called strike is??? It's called answering a question before it's asked. On a borderline pitch, I answer the "where's that at?" question before it's asked. Same as I do with a safe-off the bag, safe-no tag, balk-no stop, or what ever. It's not "color commentary".

[mstaylor]

I don't do that either. I may quietly tell the catcher to bring him him but I am not announcing location to the dugout. Call me old school.

[BigUmpire]

I have found that if you call one pitch location you will be expected to do so the rest of the game.

I dont.

[Thunderheads]

I have found that if you call one pitch location you will be expected to do so the rest of the game.

I dont.

I disagree.

I've been doing this (what MidAmUmp states) for 4 seasons on close pitches only and I don't find that the case at all.  But, ...to each his own and your area may vary also.  It's almost like "white on your shoes" .........it's more of a personal opinion thingy

[MidAmUmp]

You have to understand, I work at a pretty high level (4 D1 conferences) where dugouts are intense (every pitch is life and death) and think every time the glove doesn't move, it's a strike. This works for me. I hardly ever have anyone ask where a pitch is because of what I do. Catchers have told me they appreciate it.

It also eliminates all the bullcrap of the coach asking the catcher where the pitch is and the catcher having to decide: do I sell out the umpire or do I tell the dugout what the umpire wants and tip them off or do I tell them where it really was and get chewed out for setting up off the plate.

If it doesn't work for you then don't do it. If the level you work isn't that intense, don't do it. That's what I said in my original post...it depends on the level. I stated what I do at my level.

[mstaylor]

Yeah, no announcing and as little or no white.  

[Thunderheads]

Yeah, no announcing and as little or no white.

 

[mstaylor]

Mid, I agree, MLB guys do it too, I just don't prefer myself. I have been doing this a long time and it used to be done all the time. Then it became taboo, now it is semi accepted. It is a game management tool and that is different for every umpire. 

[mstaylor]

 

Yeah, no announcing and as little or no white.

 

 

I'm kidding. Hey, I finally went to a grey frame on my mask. A concession to say the least. 

[Thunderheads]

 

 

Yeah, no announcing and as little or no white.

 

 

I'm kidding. Hey, I finally went to a grey frame on my mask. A concession to say the least. 

 

I know!     NICE!!  Contrast is sweet!!  IMHO!

[BigUmpire]

I have my my young umps black out any white on their shoes with a Sharpie and polish over them.

I tell them when they buy anything, if colors are an option on the items select black.

They will be calling in other parts of the US next year and some associations are strict on white anywhere.

 

Old school as well.

Well I AM old.

[Guest forest ump]

You have to understand, I work at a pretty high level (4 D1 conferences) where dugouts are intense (every pitch is life and death) and think every time the glove doesn't move, it's a strike. This works for me. I hardly ever have anyone ask where a pitch is because of what I do. Catchers have told me they appreciate it.

It also eliminates all the bullcrap of the coach asking the catcher where the pitch is and the catcher having to decide: do I sell out the umpire or do I tell the dugout what the umpire wants and tip them off or do I tell them where it really was and get chewed out for setting up off the plate.

If it doesn't work for you then don't do it. If the level you work isn't that intense, don't do it. That's what I said in my original post...it depends on the level. I stated what I do at my level.

I do this too based on intensity. It's good preventative umpiring.

 

As far as the original post, if he holds the pitch out there just tell him to get that pitch back or he's going to have a long day. If he questions a ball, ask him if he wants that to be called a strike next time he comes up to bat.

[KLAH316]

Yeah, no announcing and as little or no white.

No announcing..... I don't mind the white SWOOSH!

[grayhawk]

I give pitch location on close balls, especially the ones that are belt high but inside.  That seems to be the pitch that fools them and gets them to comment more often than not.  I almost never have the dugouts ask where a pitch missed, though I did have one coach ask where a pitch was ON THE FIRST PITCH OF THE GAME!  I simply said, only loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear, "Really?  On the first pitch?"  F2 then looked at his coach and told him it was inside.

 

My verbal on this is simple:

 

"Ball, that's in." or "Ball, that's out."  I do admit to calling balls up and down on occasion, but I am being treated for it with pills and injections.  I am hopeful for a full recovery.

[Quickstrike33]

You don't want to take too much crap from a catcher, but you also want to keep the starter in the game if possible....The back-up catcher is a back-up for a reason...You don't want to take a beating for tossing the starter,but sometimes it's the lesser of two evils.....