Runs Score?

[JaxRolo]

1 out bases loaded.

 

Line drive all runners take off on the crack off the bat F4 Catches  it for out #2.

 

He throws to 1st to double up the runner but throws the ball away.

 

In the meantime R2 and R3 go back and tag up and end up crossing the plate.

 

R1 who is an autistic kid never returns to first. The ball is thrown to 1st for the 3rd out after the other 2 runners cross the plate.

 

Do the runs count?

[calablue]

Souns like a time play to me. Both runs score>

[jmpnjmy]

Calablue is right.  Both runs score, score the runs

[UmpJM]

Concur. Time play, score the runs.

 

JM

[calablue]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while!

[noumpere]

I agree with the others that the runs count but without meaning this to sound like I am blasting you, why do you need to ask this?  You've been posting here long enough and often enough to either know the answer or know exactly right where in the book to look to find it or both.

 

Finally, wtf does it matter that F1 was autistic?   Just put down that he didn't return before the appeal.  the additional information doesn't add anything that's needed to the play.

[jmpnjmy]

I agree with the others that the runs count but without meaning this to sound like I am blasting you, why do you need to ask this?  You've been posting here long enough and often enough to either know the answer or know exactly right where in the book to look to find it or both.

 

Finally, wtf does it matter that F1 was autistic?   Just put down that he didn't return before the appeal.  the additional information doesn't add anything that's needed to the play.

 

I was puzzled too. nothing new, mind you.

[Thunderheads]

I agree with the others that the runs count but without meaning this to sound like I am blasting you, why do you need to ask this?  You've been posting here long enough and often enough to either know the answer or know exactly right where in the book to look to find it or both.

 

Finally, wtf does it matter that F1 was autistic?   Just put down that he didn't return before the appeal.  the additional information doesn't add anything that's needed to the play.

While I agree with this .....  It appears to me (and I could be wrong) that A) Rolando is settling a bet with someone and they don't believe him and he wanted to have it shown in writing by other umpires to prove his bet, and ....  B ) the autistic comment was only meant to set the scene perfectly as it happened, I don't see Rolando doing this purposely to be negative ....

[Rich Ives]

To complete to explanation:

 

Why does this come up so often?  Because too many people think the retouch appeal is a force play. It's wrong, but too many people think it is.

 

The runs count and it's a time play because the re-touch failure and subsequent appeal is NOT a force play so the force play exception is not in effect.

[bam]

Runs only come off on appeal at first for BR, not runner already there. 

 

Tough rooom, huh?

[UmpJM]

Rich,

 

I have often wondered if the following language from the text of OBR isn't at least partially to blame...

 

 

7.02 In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If

forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any

provision of Rule 5.09. ...

 

But then when I think about it, I realize that not enough people ever actually read the rules for this to be the case.

 

JM

[JaxRolo]

I agree with the others that the runs count but without meaning this to sound like I am blasting you, why do you need to ask this?  You've been posting here long enough and often enough to either know the answer or know exactly right where in the book to look to find it or both.

 

Finally, wtf does it matter that F1 was autistic?   Just put down that he didn't return before the appeal.  the additional information doesn't add anything that's needed to the play.

 

No Problem!

One of my co-workers is a coach and I just put down the situation as I was told. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Anyway I was 99.9% and I told him I would put it on here to verify.

[UmpJM]

Rolo,

 

In case your co-worker is unconvinced by the opinions of a bunch of internet umpires, from the 4.09 Comment Approved Rulings:

 

 

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field.

Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right

fielder’s throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith

reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

 

JM

[Jocko]

Without a doubt, I'd attribute it to the fact that fans, players, and coaches attribute stepping on a base with the ball for an out to be the manner of obtaining a forced out. AKA, in their mind, any out that isn't a tag is a force out.

^^^^^^^^^^ THIS. EXACTLY THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

[wmmliggett]

The only thing I would add for consideration is this: I hope the ball did not become dead BEFORE the two runners tagged up. If it did, runners may not retouch during a dead ball and can be in danger of being called out on appeal.

[Rich Ives]

Rich,

 

I have often wondered if the following language from the text of OBR isn't at least partially to blame...

 

 

 

7.02 In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If

forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any

provision of Rule 5.09. ...

 

But then when I think about it, I realize that not enough people ever actually read the rules for this to be the case.

 

JM

 

 

Should we write to the rules committee and ask that "forced" be changed to "required"?   ;-)

[noumpere]

The only thing I would add for consideration is this: I hope the ball did not become dead BEFORE the two runners tagged up. If it did, runners may not retouch during a dead ball and can be in danger of being called out on appeal.

That's not true.  and in the OP I don't ever see the ball becoming dead.

 

In pro, you can retouch on a dead ball as long as you don't advance to the next base after the ball has become dead.

 

In HS, you can retouch on a dead ball as long as you aren't on or past the next base when the ball becomes dead.

[UmpJM]

The only thing I would add for consideration is this: I hope the ball did not become dead BEFORE the two runners tagged up. If it did, runners may not retouch during a dead ball and can be in danger of being called out on appeal.

 

wmmliggett,

 

That is INCORRECT. Thanks for playing.

 

JM

[grayhawk]

The only thing I would add for consideration is this: I hope the ball did not become dead BEFORE the two runners tagged up. If it did, runners may not retouch during a dead ball and can be in danger of being called out on appeal.

 

Yikes.  You're not off to a good start here.

[JaxRolo]

The only thing I would add for consideration is this: I hope the ball did not become dead BEFORE the two runners tagged up. If it did, runners may not retouch during a dead ball and can be in danger of being called out on appeal.

 

Yikes.  You're not off to a good start here.

I wonder if he will be back!

 

He's even got Jocko beat in saying the most wrong things in a short period of time!    Sorry couldn't resist!

[tldavis19]

So I'm just clarifying. If R1 misses second and reaches third and a fielder overthrows the ball into DBT, the runner has to stay at third and can be called out on appeal since he reached that base after the one he missed?

 

and to further clarify, if he missed second and doesn't reach third and the ball goes out, he's allowed to retouch second?

 

Am I catching the differences correctly?

[mstaylor]

Yes, if he has reached or passed the next base when the ball goes OOP, he can't go back. If he is between the missed base and the next, he is good to return. This includes if he had gone by the next base but got back on the correct side before the ball goes out. 

[grayhawk]

Yes, if he has reached or passed the next base when the ball goes OOP, he can't go back. If he is between the missed base and the next, he is good to return. This includes if he had gone by the next base but got back on the correct side before the ball goes out. 

 

Important to point out that he CAN go back and touch - meaning we are not going to prevent him from attempting to do so.  However, he would still be out on appeal because his attempt to correct his baserunning error would not be legal.  I know you know this - just pointing it out for others.

[UmpJM]

tldavis,

 

It depends on what code the game is being played under.

 

FED: If the runner is "a base beyond" the base where the infraction occurred when the ball becomes dead, he has lost the right to correct his infraction. (Unless the umpire judges the defense intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent his return.) You don't actually stop the runner if he wants to go back and touch while the ball is dead, but even after touching, he will still be liable to an appeal.

 

OBR: If the runner touches a "base beyond" his position at the time the ball is dead AFTER the ball has become dead, then he loses the right to correct his base running infraction.

 

Example: R1 clean base hit to the gap. The R1 misses 2B in his advance, continues to 3B (which he touches) and advances part of the way to home. The defense throws "behind" him at 3B, but the throw is errant and goes out of play as the runner is two steps shy of touching 3B on his return.

 

Rulings:

 

FED, the runner has lost the ability to correct his miss of 2B because he was at/beyond 3B when the ball went out of play.

 

OBR, the runner may return and correct his miss of 2B while the ball is dead as long as he does so before advancing to home.

 

JM

[noumpere]

tldavis,

 

It depends on what code the game is being played under.

 

FED: If the runner is "a base beyond" the base where the infraction occurred when the ball becomes dead, he has lost the right to correct his infraction. (Unless the umpire judges the defense intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent his return.) You don't actually stop the runner if he wants to go back and touch while the ball is dead, but even after touching, he will still be liable to an appeal.

 

OBR: If the runner touches a "base beyond" his position at the time the ball is dead AFTER the ball has become dead, then he loses the right to correct his base running infraction.

 

Example: R1 clean base hit to the gap. The R1 misses 2B in his advance, continues to 3B (which he touches) and advances part of the way to home. The defense throws "behind" him at 3B, but the throw is errant and goes out of play as the runner is two steps shy of touching 3B on his return.

 

Rulings:

 

FED, the runner has lost the ability to correct his miss of 2B because he was at/beyond 3B when the ball went out of play.

 

OBR, the runner may return and correct his miss of 2B while the ball is dead as long as he does so before advancing to home.

 

JM

Listen to UmpJM on this because he has it exactly right.  It's what I said before only better and with examples.