Sandy Hook Elementary School

[Jocko]

For the lives lost. For the lives shattered. For a weeping nation.

God bless America

[Stan W.]

For the lives lost. For the lives shattered. For a weeping nation.

God bless America

well said.........my prayers for the lost.........

[BRUMP]

Anyone else hear the story of Vicki Soto?? She was teaching a class and when she heard the shots from the hallway she made all of her students get into the closet. There wasn't enough room for all of them so she stayed out and sat at her desk. When the gunman came in and asked where are the kids she said in the gym and he killed her and walked out without harming any of the kids in the closet. THAT'S a real hero.

[johnnyg08]

Has that been confirmed as true? I read about that too, but was wary because of all of the scams on facebook.

[BRUMP]

Has that been confirmed as true? I read about that too, but was wary because of all of the scams on facebook.

According to the news judging from the eyewitness accounts of the kids in the closet that is what happened but as you can imagine that might be spotty. The details are unimportant the reality is that she saved the lives of her students by sacrificing her own.

[yawetag]

I've heard it was another teacher, one that put them all in a bathroom and hid with them.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/newton.asp

[Dannytheman]

This was a tough weekend. Suffering through this tragedy and doing my other part time job of defending the NRA as people emotionally assaulted anyone and everyone as the scapegoat for this horrific act. I understand the emotion, but I wish people would just grieve and not make threats on my family and myself. Politicians immediatley asking for gun control on TV, without having any facts. Not letting a tragedy go to waste. Bloomberg, Shumer, Feinstein all should be ashamed. I was so confused by the way the story was covered, I'm not sure I can ever trust the media again. I mean they were interviewing 7 year old children who survived 2 hours after the incident occurred? I was sickened. So much bad reporting in the age of instant news. No checks and balances, all about ratings. I am appalled.

But what stayed in the front of my mind is that none of the existing 50,000 gun laws could have stopped this mentally deranged man from doing what he did.

I didn't sleep agonizing over the loss those parents must feel. I wish I could lesson their pain in some way.

God has a special place for children in heaven. That faith keeps me walking today.

Updated this with someone that saw what I saw but is a much better writer.

http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/237905/the-media-should-be-ashamed-of-its-connecticut-coverage

[johnnyg08]

That faith keeps me walking today.

That's all we have right now.

[johnnyg08]

thanks for your continued defense of the 2nd amendment.

[mstaylor]

I have also been defending gun ownership. However, being a gun owner means being a responsible gun owner. If the reports re to be believed, and that is a big if, then the shooter has a history of violent mental problems and as such the mother used questionable judgement in having the guns in the house, or not secured so he could gain access. The problem is there were so many mistakes made in the reporting I question anything they have said. The idiot on CNN, Piers Morgan, was almost having a stroke over the AR 15 he stole from his mother. Again the reports say he left it in the car, the only weapons were two handguns.

This is a tragedy but again it was done by a mentally unstable person using stolen guns, including committing murder to get them. Guns restrictions only affect sane law abiding people. The unstable or criminals always have a way to get a weapon illegally. The laws that Feinstein and others are pushing are just kneejerk reactions at best. At worse it is using a tragedy to further a political agenda.

[carolinablue]

I'm not against logical gun control laws, but anyone that thinks that will stop situations such as Sandy Hook are just not real. A criminal will always have a gun no matter what. In this country people will make them in thier garage if need be. All it takes is a small machine shop.

What bothers me the most, and I have a nine year old in 4th grade, is how easy it was for him to pull it off. Once inside the school, there was just no one that could stop him, plain and simple. If it were the white House or the Governor's mansion he would have been dead before he could get a shot off. Our tax dollars pay for the security of our leaders, and it should, but then we send our children to a place that has become a target and they have zero security. It's ridiculous and something needs to be done.

Also, the media in this country is a joke, and have been an integral part of it's decline. Liars is what they are.

[UmpJM]

Blues for America

Having fallen into an easy hatefulness

The country mourns its loss

Of memory

Of promise

Of service

Of civility

Of innocence

A November noon in Dallas

An April rain in Memphis

A stunning explosion in Oklahoma City

A slaughtered school in Colorado

A September morn in Manhattan

A shattered morn in Tucson

now

An unspeakable massacre in Connecticut

Shudders the nation

We are shaken

Lessons learned and forgotten,

We resolve;

The scars from each grow callous,

We are hardened;

Inured against the touch

Of the better angels of our nature

Searching for an accusation

Longing for explanation

Yearning for a better way

We are America

When we find

What is best in each other

JM

[Richvee]

I found this compelling. Worth the read.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=4340446,b=facebook

[Guest]

1) The child in rich's story sounds schizophrenic. The fact that "mental health experts" cannot see that alarms me.

2) Gun control is absolutely an issue in the United States. What the hell does anyone need a Bushman assault rifle for? The US consistently has a firearm-related homicide rate four to five times higher than the next modern Western country. Those who own a gun are approximately 7 times more likely to die in a gun-related incident (intentional or accidental) than those who do not own a gun, even if it is for the sole-purpose of "just in case" self-defence. And all of these statistics are calculated in a manner where varying population is accounted for.

The mere prescence of a gun has been correlated to increased aggressive behaviour (see a study by Albert Bandura involving a Bobo the Clown doll).

There is a difference between infringing on constitutional rights for the sake of doing so and doing so in a reasonable manner according to principles of fundamental justice.

Suggesting that gun control would not have prevented this may be accurate, but that's like saying jail terms or even the death penalty (advocate of such, btw) is not going to stop murder, so why bother locking up killers.

Governments have a duty to protect their citizens. In the last 4 years, the United States has had four substantial mass shootings; since 1994 approximately 70 school shootings, so a journalist facebook friend says. Even if the school shooting number is inflated, the "real" number is still absolutely asinine.

I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to own guns. Several members of my family are avid hunters. But again, there is no valid argument as to why any citizen needs an assault rifle.

Yes the health system does a deplorable job handling mentally ill individuals, but they are not showing up and slashing their way through schools and malls, they are shooting their way through.

That clearly indicates an issue about the availability of firearms.

[Richvee]

I mearly post that article to drive home the point that there's no magic solution. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another of the many contributing factors....

Gun control

Media's reaction and sensationalizing of the events.(Perhaps we should try not even mentioning these killer's names. Give them none of the fame some are looking for)

The amount of violence that is accepted in society- be it movies, TV, video games. I think taken in total, it's making kids "de-sensitized" to violence/death.

Lack of overall morals....Directly related to the lack of religion, God, or just plain common decency.

Lack of proper mental health care/knowledge/awareness...

I don't have any answers. I do know there's a whole slew of problems, and sensationalizing these events by the media for profit, politicians shamelessly using such events to grandstand and move their political agenda forward is reprehensible. These are the people who can do the most good to prevent these atrocities, yet they choose to sensationalize it instead.

[Jocko]

1) The child in rich's story sounds schizophrenic. The fact that "mental health experts" cannot see that alarms me.

2) Gun control is absolutely an issue in the United States. What the hell does anyone need a Bushman assault rifle for? The US consistently has a firearm-related homicide rate four to five times higher than the next modern Western country. Those who own a gun are approximately 7 times more likely to die in a gun-related incident (intentional or accidental) than those who do not own a gun, even if it is for the sole-purpose of "just in case" self-defence. And all of these statistics are calculated in a manner where varying population is accounted for.

The mere prescence of a gun has been correlated to increased aggressive behaviour (see a study by Albert Bandura involving a Bobo the Clown doll).

There is a difference between infringing on constitutional rights for the sake of doing so and doing so in a reasonable manner according to principles of fundamental justice.

Suggesting that gun control would not have prevented this may be accurate, but that's like saying jail terms or even the death penalty (advocate of such, btw) is not going to stop murder, so why bother locking up killers.

Governments have a duty to protect their citizens. In the last 4 years, the United States has had four substantial mass shootings; since 1994 approximately 70 school shootings, so a journalist facebook friend says. Even if the school shooting number is inflated, the "real" number is still absolutely asinine.

I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to own guns. Several members of my family are avid hunters. But again, there is no valid argument as to why any citizen needs an assault rifle.

Yes the health system does a deplorable job handling mentally ill individuals, but they are not showing up and slashing their way through schools and malls, they are shooting their way through.

That clearly indicates an issue about the availability of firearms.

There is no reason whatsoever for me to explain WHY I "need" an AR15. I don't "need" 99% of the things I own. Until I infringe upon your rights, stay out of mine. I am a responsible, law-abiding, tax paying veteran that owns registered firearms. What do you care what model or brand they are? It's not for me to say what model/brand of car you own, yet there are statistics that show which car has been involved in the most wrecks. Cars kill exponentially more innocent people than guns. Let's legislate THAT. No, wait. That would be STUPID. I got it, let's see what time of day most accidents happenn, and legislate THAT. Won't work, you say? Ok. Let's take the weapon systems from the veterans Uncle Sam trained to properly, safely, and efffectively use them. THAT will SURELY help. Only.............those aren't the ones committing these horrible acts. F**k it. Let's take 'em anyway.

They can have my weapons when they pry them from my cold dead fingers. Stay out of my rights, and I stay out of yours.

[johnnyg08]

Owning a Bushmaster gun correlates to a more violent person? C'mon...I own that exact gun, I know several of my friends who also own them, we're not violent.

[Thunderheads]

1) The child in rich's story sounds schizophrenic. The fact that "mental health experts" cannot see that alarms me.

2) Gun control is absolutely an issue in the United States. What the hell does anyone need a Bushman assault rifle for? The US consistently has a firearm-related homicide rate four to five times higher than the next modern Western country. Those who own a gun are approximately 7 times more likely to die in a gun-related incident (intentional or accidental) than those who do not own a gun, even if it is for the sole-purpose of "just in case" self-defence. And all of these statistics are calculated in a manner where varying population is accounted for.

No ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[johnnyg08]

That .223 Bushmaster gun gets a bad rap. First of all, it is not fully automatic. There are many hunting rifles as powerful or more powerful widely available. The gun was the forbidden fruit for many years, it looks "cool" so people buy it.

Limiting ammunition purchases is another idea that I do not support. When I'm out shooting w/ my buddies, I will easily go through a couple hundred rounds. (just me). If one doesn't know much about the sport of shooting I don't expect them to understand why limiting ammo doesn't make sense.

[scrounge]

Assault rifles have been essentially banned since 1934, we're primarily talking about lookalikes and cosmetic issues. Is a Bushmaster really more lethal because it's painted black and has a different grip than a Mini-14 with a wood stock? They shoot the exact same round, can take low or high capacity magazines (which anyone with a little sheet metal and a spring can modify), the bullet doesn't know which gun shot it, but one looks scarier than the other. That's the basis for public policy I guess. The first 'assault weapons' ban did nothing for crime, the next one if it comes won't either.

And with 300 MILLION firearms already in this country, frankly this is a stunningly irrelevant debate. It's too late. And unlike drugs that require constant reimportation, firearms are durable items that last decades - only need to smuggle/import them once. Ammo is plentiful, much easier to make than drugs or alcohol, and easy to smuggle. Short of a total ban - which would require invasive searches and a police state beyond any paranoid imagination and make Prohibition x 1000 a reality - we won't accomplish a thing. Except maybe make it worse.

And the most tragic thing is that we'll waste an ENORMOUS amount of time and energy fighting these ancillary issues, when we'd accomplish far more and help many more people and prevent more tragedies by improving mental health treatment. There are scant options outside of ERs that can't treat mental patients and prisons that make them worse. And it would be much easier to build a coalition on both sides to improve mental health treatment and reform firearms purchase and background check laws to better clarify eligibility. Look at the common thread through Columbine, Aurora, Gabby Giffords, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, etc. It's not a type of weapon or method of acquisition or video games or anything else - it's young (16-24) men with personality or mental health disorders. That's not just a specious correlation - it's causation.

But that's not 'sexy'....more headlines for Dianne Feinstein to attack the 'evil' looking instrument, when by her own admission she can't even define what an assault weapon is. And by kicking the can down the road, we'll just waste time and energy until it sadly happens again.

People are screaming "how many children need to die before we do 'something' about guns". I ask how many children need to die before we stop these intractable, quixotic crusades against an inanimate tool and finally start addressing the actual causes.

[mstaylor]

Most non gun owners don't understand owning guns. I personally do not own a single gun but I completely support the right to do so. Whether you are a hunter, a collector or a sports shooter, the need for multiple weapons is necessary. Telling someone they can only have one rifle or handgun is stupid.

[johnnyg08]

Assault rifles have been essentially banned since 1934, we're primarily talking about lookalikes and cosmetic issues. Is a Bushmaster really more lethal because it's painted black and has a different grip than a Mini-14 with a wood stock? They shoot the exact same round, can take low or high capacity magazines (which anyone with a little sheet metal and a spring can modify), the bullet doesn't know which gun shot it, but one looks scarier than the other. That's the basis for public policy I guess. The first 'assault weapons' ban did nothing for crime, the next one if it comes won't either.

And with 300 MILLION firearms already in this country, frankly this is a stunningly irrelevant debate. It's too late. And unlike drugs that require constant reimportation, firearms are durable items that last decades - only need to smuggle/import them once. Ammo is plentiful, much easier to make than drugs or alcohol, and easy to smuggle. Short of a total ban - which would require invasive searches and a police state beyond any paranoid imagination and make Prohibition x 1000 a reality - we won't accomplish a thing. Except maybe make it worse.

And the most tragic thing is that we'll waste an ENORMOUS amount of time and energy fighting these ancillary issues, when we'd accomplish far more and help many more people and prevent more tragedies by improving mental health treatment. There are scant options outside of ERs that can't treat mental patients and prisons that make them worse. And it would be much easier to build a coalition on both sides to improve mental health treatment and reform firearms purchase and background check laws to better clarify eligibility. Look at the common thread through Columbine, Aurora, Gabby Giffords, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, etc. It's not a type of weapon or method of acquisition or video games or anything else - it's young (16-24) men with personality or mental health disorders. That's not just a specious correlation - it's causation.

But that's not 'sexy'....more headlines for Dianne Feinstein to attack the 'evil' looking instrument, when by her own admission she can't even define what an assault weapon is. And by kicking the can down the road, we'll just waste time and energy until it sadly happens again.

People are screaming "how many children need to die before we do 'something' about guns". I ask how many children need to die before we stop these intractable, quixotic crusades against an inanimate tool and finally start addressing the actual causes.

Excellent post. Thank you.

[Jocko]

"Gun Control" means you can post sub moa #s at 200+ yards. The guns, in the hands of a properly trained, mentally stable, law abiding citizen are no more dangerous than a fishing rod (which I own about 20. Do I "need" that many? Can't use but 1 ata a time, right?). More fearful is the 2000+ pound automobile in the hands of a tired, preoccupied, or otherwise distracted driver. People die in texting while driving wrecks, yet noone is screaming for cell phone bans. Better still, let's take radios out of cars because idiots looking at it instead of the road cause accidents. How about food and drink. Capitol hill is already inundated with usesless debate over trivialities. Let's throw more on their plate. Gimme a break.

[johnnyg08]

I wonder how many people back over their child in a year. A senseless death, we should ban the gear of reverse.

[Guest]

1) The child in rich's story sounds schizophrenic. The fact that "mental health experts" cannot see that alarms me.

2) Gun control is absolutely an issue in the United States. What the hell does anyone need a Bushman assault rifle for? The US consistently has a firearm-related homicide rate four to five times higher than the next modern Western country. Those who own a gun are approximately 7 times more likely to die in a gun-related incident (intentional or accidental) than those who do not own a gun, even if it is for the sole-purpose of "just in case" self-defence. And all of these statistics are calculated in a manner where varying population is accounted for.

No ....

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Jeff, I said "modern Western world"...In contemporary culture, this means countries established by European colonialism or currently having significant / majority populations of individuals with European ancestry, not simply any country in the Western Hemisphere. So, off hand: the EU, Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand. If you don't like that operational definition, look at the G8 countries: Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia (no data on Wiki) US. After the US (3.7 homicides / 100 000 people), the next highest rate among G8 countries is Canada (0.76 homicides / 100 000 people).

I find this discussion highly hypocritical. It is apparently unfair for numerous reasons given above to suggest gun control is an issue here, yet it is okay for pro-gun owners to point the finger at your mental health system. An effective mental health system cannot simply be achieved at the snap of one's fingers. Not to mention the small issue in psychology called hindsight bias; that's when after something like this happens, suddenly the clues that the shooter suffered from a mental disorder magically become obvious, and everyone "knew" they had issues, when in reality, that is completely opposite of the truth.

I don't follow the American media with any level of passion so I can't say for certain, but I imagine at a time like this the pro-gun control lobbyists getting all the TV time are on all the major news channels making outlandish claims and propositions that would not hold an ounce of water with anyone from the academic world while proclaiming the only solution is to outright ban guns completely, yaddy yaddy yadda. The result is that any gun supporters automatically get their back up when an anti-gun argument is presented because that argument is associated with ridiculous figureheads on TV who are making half of their SH*# up as they go along.

An outright, cold-turkey ban on handguns, long rifles, assault weapons, shotguns, you name it, is delirious.

The problem lies completely within the ease of access to these things. You can blame video games, the media, the mental health system...whatever you want, but the fact remains that these are not school stabbing incidents, these are not school bombing incidents, these are school shooting incidents. Stay with me because this is where most gun-activists miss the key point: this is like the teacher lecturing about how class attendance leads to better grades. The lecture is actually falling on deaf ears because the ones there to hear it are the ones who come to class and get good grades; the people who really need to hear what's being said aren't there because they don't come to class and subsequently get bad grades. Just like gun-control. The loudest voices opposed to gun control are typically responsible gun owners who follow all the laws, know how to handle their weapon, use it in an appropriate manner, store it safely, etc. But the truth is, buying a gun doesn't come with a free inclusion of a bag of responsibility and morals. Gun control laws aren't intended to prevent gun activists from enjoying their hobby or to discriminate against this group by making it a PITA to buy a gun; they would be intended to prevent / deter individuals who would otherwise just be buying a gun on a whim.

There are 3 groups of potential criminals in society, which you can extrapolate to potential gun-wielding criminals: the group who will never commit a crime with a gun because they are morally inclined to know it is wrong; those who will commit a crime with a gun regardless of any law because they will obtain their weapon somehow and are a motivated offender; and those who may or may not be deterred depending on a number of factors, including existing legislation, availability of target / tools, and the pros vs cons of committing the act (aka rational choice theory). Gun control laws won't have any effect on the first two groups for obvious reasons, but are meant strictly to target that middle group. As soon as you provide a potential criminal the means to complete their fantasy, their fantasy has no longer become that; instead it becomes reality. You'll never be able to stop them all, but is preventing one of those 70 school shootings since 1994 that I mentioned not worth the extra inconvenience? What if it had have been one of your sons, daughters, wives, nieces, nephews, etc, killed at Sandy Hook, in Aspen, Tuscon, etc? Just because it is hard does not mean it should not be explored and undertaken. You have already given up constitutional rights in the name of the Patriot Act. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for a little extra paperwork in order to buy a gun in order to help ensure the safety of your country. Since Canada introduced its first gun control laws in 1977, fire-arm related homicide has decreased by 0.65 from 1.15/100K to a rate of 0.5 / 100 000 people in 2003 (11 years after the data given in the Wiki Jeff linked). Based on a US population of 112.5 million and an equivalent rate of decline to what we had in Canada, that is 73 215 fewer firearm-related homicides per year. FWIW, statistics also show a decline of non-firearms related homicide in Canada during this time.

It is not incorrect to also look to the media, video games, and the mental health system as factors in these atrocities. But the fact of the matter is like I said, these were not mass stabbings, these were not mass bombings, they were mass shootings. Gun control legislation must factor into the debate at some point.

Laws exist for us to drive cars. But you have to pass a driving test in order to do so first. We are then not able to just buy a car, register it, then use it however we please. Part of driving education involves learning and abiding by the rules of the road. The automotive industry is working year round to improve the safety of all vehicles; new laws are being established all the time to make driving safer, whether it be with regard to driving while intoxicated, seat belts, or texting / talking while driving ($155 fine in Ontario, btw). Insurance premiums are dictated by factors such as make, model, and even colour of the car; age, sex, and ethnicity of the driver; school grades, and completion or non-completion of driver's ed, and of course prior driving history, including accidents and moving violations.