What's the call ?

[Ump29]

OBR. 0 out. R2. The batter hits a looping drive to short right field. R2 holds up and remains at 2nd as the ball drops safely. The BR rounds 1st and collides with F3. BR continues to run and reaches 2nd safely. Both runners are now standing at 2nd . The defensive player tags both runners. What should the umpire's call be?

[Guest]

OBR. 0 out. R2. The batter hits a looping drive to short right field. R2 holds up and remains at 2nd as the ball drops safely. The BR rounds 1st and collides with F3. BR continues to run and reaches 2nd safely. Both runners are now standing at 2nd . The defensive player tags both runners. What should the umpire's call be?

2009 OBA Level 3 Exam and 2010 Level 4 Exam Question!

What a clusterf*ck this created among 3's in 09...

[UmpTTS43]

BR out.

[grayhawk]

I really don't know - is this in a casebook somewhere? I guess the first question is, was obstruction called? Let's say yes. If there was no R2, and BR was obstructed and continued to second and was tagged out, time is then called and BR would be awarded second base. Now we add R2 who stays at second, and when you have 2 players standing on a base, the following runner is out when tagged (when it's not a force). But since BR has been awarded second, that should force R2 to third. I would say R2 goes to third and BR goes to second - still 0 outs. That makes sense to me - I have nothing to back it up.

[zm1283]

BR out.

+1

Type B (Or 2 in NCAA) OBS. You don't have to award him 2B on the OBS, and you can rule that he was simply protected back into 1B. He ran to 2B at his own risk and since he isn't protected there, he's out.

[jnazz]

This is obstruction without a play. You call obstruction but don't kill the play. The runner has advanced to second. Just because he is obstructed, it doesn't mean he can ignore the actions of a teammate on base. On the call at second when runners are jointly occupying a base and both are tagged you call the following runner out. BR out.

Then you will likely eject the offensive manager :)

[yawetag]

Type B (Or 2 in NCAA) OBS. You don't have to award him 2B on the OBS, and you can rule that he was simply protected back into 1B. He ran to 2B at his own risk and since he isn't protected there, he's out.

Let's say you DID protect him to 2B.

[jnazz]

Type B (Or 2 in NCAA) OBS. You don't have to award him 2B on the OBS, and you can rule that he was simply protected back into 1B. He ran to 2B at his own risk and since he isn't protected there, he's out.

Let's say you DID protect him to 2B.

Even if you DID protect him...... see my reply above.

[tiger49]

OBR. 0 out. R2. The batter hits a looping drive to short right field. R2 holds up and remains at 2nd as the ball drops safely. The BR rounds 1st and collides with F3. BR continues to run and reaches 2nd safely. Both runners are now standing at 2nd . The defensive player tags both runners. What should the umpire's call be?

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What a clusterf*ck this created among 3's in 09...

There fixed it for you.

[Rich Ives]

Type B (Or 2 in NCAA) OBS. You don't have to award him 2B on the OBS, and you can rule that he was simply protected back into 1B. He ran to 2B at his own risk and since he isn't protected there, he's out.

Let's say you DID protect him to 2B.

Even if you DID protect him...... see my reply above.

That doesn't make sense. If you protect him to 2B then you'll have to rule him safe there. Having done so you then have to give the other runner 3B.

[grayhawk]

This is obstruction without a play. You call obstruction but don't kill the play. The runner has advanced to second. Just because he is obstructed, it doesn't mean he can ignore the actions of a teammate on base. On the call at second when runners are jointly occupying a base and both are tagged you call the following runner out. BR out.

Then you will likely eject the offensive manager

Is there a rule reference or case book play you can provide?

Also, what if instead of going to second base, BR stops and goes back to 1st, but in the umpire's judgement, he would have been able to make it to second safely if not for the obstruction? You then award BR second and R2 goes to third, correct? But in the original question, when BR goes to the base you were going to award him, you are now going to call him out and ignore the obstuction? Not saying you are wrong - it just seems odd.

[jnazz]

This is obstruction without a play. You call obstruction but don't kill the play. The runner has advanced to second. Just because he is obstructed, it doesn't mean he can ignore the actions of a teammate on base. On the call at second when runners are jointly occupying a base and both are tagged you call the following runner out. BR out.

Then you will likely eject the offensive manager

Is there a rule reference or case book play you can provide?

Also, what if instead of going to second base, BR stops and goes back to 1st, but in the umpire's judgement, he would have been able to make it to second safely if not for the obstruction? You then award BR second and R2 goes to third, correct? But in the original question, when BR goes to the base you were going to award him, you are now going to call him out and ignore the obstuction? Not saying you are wrong - it just seems odd.

JR Chapter 15 Obstruction

Section III Considering Action After Obstruction

Pg.126 An umpire may have to consider action occuring after obstruction in determining a runner's award or protection (or neither). An obstructed runner's protection or award can be revised each time something happens that would change the award or protection.

Examples: Obstruction With or Without a Play (Considering Action After the Obstruction)

Pg.128 Example 2 R2, one out. The batter hits a pop fly to shallow right-center field. Misplayed, the ball drops amidst three fielders. R2 is unable to advance and has returned to second. The batter-runner rounds first aggressively

a) prompting the right fielder to throw to first base. However, the first baseman obstructs the batter-runner during his return, and is then able to block the throw. The batter-runner must be awarded second, so R2 is given an arbitrary award to third.

b ) and is obstructed. An outfielder throws behind the batter-runner and the first baseman tags him: time is imposed when the tag occurs because this is obstruction without a play. The batter-runner is protected back to first, R2 stays on second.

c) and is obstructed, but continues his advance to second without hesitation. He is able to reach second, and jointly occupies it with R2, when both runers are tagged: the batter-runner (following runner) is out. He is required to realize that R2 has not advanced. The obstruction does not give him licence to ignore the actions of his teammate while advancing.

The reason that BR is awarded second base in (a) is that this is obstruction with a play, and on obstruction with a play the obstructed runner is awarded his advance base. c) is nearly the identical sit. that you have listed in your post.

[semper_fi_72]

Exactly

As stated on other site.

Awarding BR 2B after he reached there safely, is wrong. The obstruction was then nullified, and since R2 did not advance, you now have a base running error by BR, 2 runners on a bag in which one was not forced.......Trailing runner is out when tagged!!!!!!

[Forest Ump]

c) and is obstructed, but continues his advance to second without hesitation. He is able to reach second, and jointly occupies it with R2, when both runers are tagged: the batter-runner (following runner) is out. He is required to realize that R2 has not advanced. The obstruction does not give him licence to ignore the actions of his teammate while advancing.

The reason that BR is awarded second base in (a) is that this is obstruction with a play, and on obstruction with a play the obstructed runner is awarded his advance base. c) is nearly the identical sit. that you have listed in your post.

I have a slightly different take on this. The obstruction is negated because the BR made it to 2nd safely. R2's actions are independent of the obstruction. I do not have obstruction anymore. I do have two runners on the same base that is legally occupied by R2. The BR is out when tagged.

[yawetag]

Awarding BR 2B after he reached there safely, is wrong. ... Trailing runner is out when tagged!!!!!!

The obstruction is negated because the BR made it to 2nd safely. ... The BR is out when tagged.

How, may I ask, can a runner reach a base safely when he's in jeopardy if tagged while standing on that base?

[mrumpiresir]

Awarding BR 2B after he reached there safely, is wrong. ... Trailing runner is out when tagged!!!!!!

The obstruction is negated because the BR made it to 2nd safely. ... The BR is out when tagged.

How, may I ask, can a runner reach a base safely when he's in jeopardy if tagged while standing on that base?

Because of his poor baserunning. No rule allows R2 to be awarded third.

I know this is a different play but the principle is the same.

If two runners are between first and second and the ball is thrown out of play by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. So the lead runner gets third but the trail runner only gets one base, which is second base. we don't advance the lead runner an extra base so we can award the trail runner two bases so why would we do it now? This is just bad baserunning and the BR is out when tagged on second..

[Rich Ives]

No rule allows R2 to be awarded third.

Obstruction is a God rule - the umpire can award R2 third.

You can hate his guts for doing so, and never hire him again, but he can do it.

[JaxRolo]

I asked 2 MLB umpires this question today and they both said that you give R2 Third BR 2nd

[mstaylor]

And that would be incorrect. When you have a type B obstruction you decide where you are protecting him. It can be no bases or all the bases, depending on actions on the field. With a ball in short right, I can't see awarding anything past second, as a matter of fact the only reason the play is being discussed is because R2 couldn't advance. Once the runner reaches the protected base the obstruction has been nullified by rule, no award is necessary. However, once there he is responsible to follow the rule of baseball and they say he can't be on the same base with another runner, so he is out. Now if it had been type A then you advance R2 and award second, clearly not the case in the OP.

[tiger49]

I asked 2 MLB umpires this question today and they both said that you give R2 Third BR 2nd

I would agree with you in regards to the pro game.

MLBUM

6.23 (3) Runner is on second base when the batter-runner is obstructed after reaching first base. The

umpire intends to award the batter-runner second base on the obstruction. What happens to the

runner on second?

Ruling: Runner on second is awarded third base.

However: Baseball Canada wants it ruled the other way, with BR being called out. The OP comes from Canada.

[grayhawk]

What if, instead of BR arriving at 2nd base safely (with R2 still there), BR is tagged out on a close play sliding into 2nd after he was obstructed by F3? Are you awarding him 2nd base then (even with R2 still standing on 2nd)?

[semper_fi_72]

What if, instead of BR arriving at 2nd base safely (with R2 still there), BR is tagged out on a close play sliding into 2nd after he was obstructed by F3? Are you awarding him 2nd base then (even with R2 still standing on 2nd)?

I am not awarding the BR anything as long as R2 is on 2B.

The BR made a bone head base running error. End of story.

R2 has possession of 2B and is not forced to move.

BR is out on any play at 2B since R2 is not forced to leave 2B.

[JaxRolo]

I asked 2 MLB umpires this question today and they both said that you give R2 Third BR 2nd

MLBUM

6.23 (3) Runner is on second base when the batter-runner is obstructed after reaching first base. The

umpire intends to award the batter-runner second base on the obstruction. What happens to the

runner on second?

Ruling: Runner on second is awarded third base.

This is exactly what they said. Plus its not our job to care about poor baserunners. You see the obstuction you award the BR 2nd and forces R2 to third. Period no other choices.

[UmpTTS43]

I asked 2 MLB umpires this question today and they both said that you give R2 Third BR 2nd

MLBUM

6.23 (3) Runner is on second base when the batter-runner is obstructed after reaching first base. The

umpire intends to award the batter-runner second base on the obstruction. What happens to the

runner on second?

Ruling: Runner on second is awarded third base.

This is exactly what they said. Plus its not our job to care about poor baserunners. You see the obstuction you award the BR 2nd and forces R2 to third. Period no other choices.

In the example given, it is assumed that the BR had not yet attained 2nd since the umpire was going to award him the base. Once BR is on 2nd, there is no award to be given.

The MLBUM also says this:

NOTE (2): Runner Obstructed While No Play Being Made On Him. In determining what base a runner will be awarded under this second section of the obstruction rule, it is permissible for the umpire to consider the position and speed of the runner, ball and fielder at the moment the obstruction occurs. However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.

NOTE (3): If a runner is obstructed while no play is being made on him, the umpire making the call should have the benefit of input of his partners in determining what bases, if any, shall be awarded to the obstructed runner. In other words, the crew may confer in order to determine what reasonably might have happened had the obstruction not occurred.

The key part in my ruling is where it says "what reasonably might have happened had the obstruction not occured." As in the original OP, if the obstruction had not occured, BR would be out, therefore BR is out even though OBS occurred.

Since the BR reached 2nd, there is no award or protection invoked. The obstruction is, for practical purposes, disregarded since it had no bearing on the play.

greyhawk posed a valid question and I disagree with semper on that one. I would award BR 2nd thereby forcing R2 to third. These are two totally different situations. One is where BR has "safely" reached the base, although not legally entitled to it, and in the second example, the BR was not able to "safely" reach 2nd due to the OBS.

[mazzamouth]

I really don't know - is this in a casebook somewhere? I guess the first question is, was obstruction called? Let's say yes. If there was no R2, and BR was obstructed and continued to second and was tagged out, time is then called and BR would be awarded second base. Now we add R2 who stays at second, and when you have 2 players standing on a base, the following runner is out when tagged (when it's not a force). But since BR has been awarded second, that should force R2 to third. I would say R2 goes to third and BR goes to second - still 0 outs. That makes sense to me - I have nothing to back it up.

well the question you have to ask, ' would the BR had reached 2nd had obstruction not occurred?".