Anyone See This?

[mstaylor]

Suppose the catcher tried to go "through" the batter instead of going around him. BI then? Or is it similar to when a runner is stealing 3rd. Don't move or do anything to try and get in the way and you are OK.

Yes, he gets to try to hit the ppitch. He has no time to move out of the way. To put it in OBR terms, 6.06c is in play here. If for some reason the pitch got away then the batter has to move.

[Jocko]

Straight steal, or botched squeeze?

[mstaylor]

As far as calling the play, it matters not. If he decided to pull back and not bunt at all, he still doesn't have to move.

[Jocko]

As far as calling the play, it matters not. If he decided to pull back and not bunt at all, he still doesn't have to move.

I wasn't asking as far as rules, just curious about the play.

[mstaylor]

As far as calling the play, it matters not. If he decided to pull back and not bunt at all, he still doesn't have to move.

I wasn't asking as far as rules, just curious about the play.

He definitely pulled back so good question, was it a straight steal with a fake bunt or a batter that doesn't understand how important it is to put the bat on a suicide squeeze.

[Cajuncubsfan]

He is out of the baseline and is out. As for the PU, I would hope someone had pointed these things out to him and maybe he just has not changed yet.

[kylejt]

@ :29, INT on the batter.

"out of the baseline" never crosses the PU's mind. He's calling the tag, without even considering it. Watch his body language, which tells the story.

You gotta know the situation, and be thinking "OUT!" when that runner is coming in without the cover of a bunt.

[mstaylor]

Kyle, what does the batter do that is interference? The catcher took a dumb route to the runner.

[Fittske24]

Here is my take.....

Let's try to look at the elements of this play to see if we can draw a correct conclusion.

Play elements:

-R3, attempting either a straight steal of home or a squeeze play.

-Batter attempts to bunt but aborts bunt by pulling his bat back before the pitch crosses the plate. Batter does not vacate batter’s box during the play.

-F2 blocks a pitched ball in the dirt that bounds within arm’s reach, F2 secures the pitched ball before R3 arrives near the area of home plate.

-R3 makes an attempt to score, avoids the catcher’s initial tag, and then avoids a second tag by F2 before being ruled safe.

As the plate umpire, you have a few things to consider....

(1) Does the batter interfere with the F2’s attempt to retire R3?

(2) Is the runner out of the baseline when the F2 attempts to tag R3

(3) Does the fact that this is a squeeze play have any bearing?

(4) Does the fact that the pitch is not caught cleanly have any bearing?

Now, let's look at a few possible rules that come into play during this situation:

(OBR) 6.06(c )

He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base.

(OBR) 7.08 Any runner is out when—

(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

(OBR) 7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(c ) Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making a play at home base; the runner is out;

(d) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates

Now let’s take a closer look at the play....

The fact that this is a squeeze play or steal attempt has no bearing on this play. The batter pulled his bunt attempt back due to a wild pitch. Once F2 has secured the wild pitch, he becomes a fielder with secure position of the ball attempting to retire R3. So rule 6.06(c ) does not apply because the pitch was secured with no interference by the batter during the completion of the pitch.

There is no rule in OBR that requires a batter to vacate an area when a play is being made on a runner. One could argue that the batters presence in the area of home plate adds to the difficulty of this play. Although the batter does not have to vacate, per 7.09(c ) a batter is in jeopardy of being called for interference if he hinders F2 or per 7.09(d), adds to the difficulty of F2’s attempt to retire R3 at the plate. This is where the umpire’s judgment comes into play.If the PU judges that the batter’s presence in the batter’s box is an issue he can call interference on the batter and declare the runner out (if less than two are out)

Now let’s address the out of baseline aspect of the play….

We all know per 7.08(a) that a runner cannot deviate 3 feet from his established baseline. Does the runner deviate from his established baseline? As an umpire it always helps to use “keys†to help you determine when a runner deviates the 3 feet. The most popular is the “step and a reach†concept. Here is another one. The dimensions of a regulation batter’s box are 6’ X 4’. In the video, you see the runner starts near the foul line at 0:27, then at 0:29 deviates near the bottom of the RH batter’s box to avoid the tag. This is obviously a deviation of more than 3 feet. (see diagram)

I would call the runner out for OOBL.

[zm1283]

♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ He hit the flo, next thing ya know, shawty got low, low, low...way too low!

Looks like he ran about 4 to 5 feet on his spin-around move from where he was when the catcher first tried to tag him, so I agree he went more than 3 feet. The catcher laid out and still couldn't tag him. Great camera work at the end there...gave it the old Blair Witch Project feel.

There were two tag attempts. Catcher's first attempt was pretty much straight up 3BL including his reach and the dodge to the side was marginal. Given the direction of the reach, it didn't take much of a dodge to avoid the tag attempt.

The second attempt required a new "his" baseline and I think that one was OK because the runner was pretty much past the catcher at the time.

Catcher should have waited at the plate instead of going up the line.

Looks like artificial dirt around home plate. If it's anything like running track material the slide can scrape off a lot of skin.

It is field turf just like the rest of the field. It is pretty easy for them to slide on and doesn't scrape any skin off.

I hate the two tone turf in the infield.... that would be very annoying to have to look at for 2+ hours!!!

Why? These fields are awesome. No dust, no cleaning your shoes after the game, don't have to clean the plate at all really.

[scrounge]

I was told there would be no math

[zm1283]

I would not call him out for being out of his basepath. The catcher flops on the ground for his first tag attempt, and R3 does not go more than three feet to avoid that tag. On the second tag attempt, I don't think he deviates really at all from his new basepath. He almost goes straight from where the first tag was attempted toward the plate and the catcher just lifts his glove up off the ground in a feeble attempt to tag him.

I've got nothing on the BI either.

[MidAmUmp]

Nothing on the batter. A good umpire would assist him in getting out of the way.

Pretty far stretch, but could possibly make a case for the runner being out of the base path on the 2nd tag attempt (:28-:29 seconds). Personally, I wouldn't call it.

I agree with Kyle...plate umpire is not considering anything other than a tag attempt. Looks lost overall. Poor stance, poor positioning for play, no awareness of batter, no consideration of anything other than a tag. I would bet if you asked him where the batter was, he couldn't tell you. He just had his blinders on.

[Jocko]

Here is my take.....

Let's try to look at the elements of this play to see if we can draw a correct conclusion.

Play elements:

-R3, attempting either a straight steal of home or a squeeze play.

-Batter attempts to bunt but aborts bunt by pulling his bat back before the pitch crosses the plate. Batter does not vacate batter’s box during the play.

-F2 blocks a pitched ball in the dirt that bounds within arm’s reach, F2 secures the pitched ball before R3 arrives near the area of home plate.

-R3 makes an attempt to score, avoids the catcher’s initial tag, and then avoids a second tag by F2 before being ruled safe.

As the plate umpire, you have a few things to consider....

(1) Does the batter interfere with the F2’s attempt to retire R3?

(2) Is the runner out of the baseline when the F2 attempts to tag R3

(3) Does the fact that this is a squeeze play have any bearing?

(4) Does the fact that the pitch is not caught cleanly have any bearing?

Now, let's look at a few possible rules that come into play during this situation:

(OBR) 6.06(c )

He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base.

(OBR) 7.08 Any runner is out when—

(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

(OBR) 7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(c ) Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making a play at home base; the runner is out;

(d) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates

Now let’s take a closer look at the play....

The fact that this is a squeeze play or steal attempt has no bearing on this play. The batter pulled his bunt attempt back due to a wild pitch. Once F2 has secured the wild pitch, he becomes a fielder with secure position of the ball attempting to retire R3. So rule 6.06(c ) does not apply because the pitch was secured with no interference by the batter during the completion of the pitch.

There is no rule in OBR that requires a batter to vacate an area when a play is being made on a runner. One could argue that the batters presence in the area of home plate adds to the difficulty of this play. Although the batter does not have to vacate, per 7.09(c ) a batter is in jeopardy of being called for interference if he hinders F2 or per 7.09(d), adds to the difficulty of F2’s attempt to retire R3 at the plate. This is where the umpire’s judgment comes into play.If the PU judges that the batter’s presence in the batter’s box is an issue he can call interference on the batter and declare the runner out (if less than two are out)

Now let’s address the out of baseline aspect of the play….

We all know per 7.08(a) that a runner cannot deviate 3 feet from his established baseline. Does the runner deviate from his established baseline? As an umpire it always helps to use “keys†to help you determine when a runner deviates the 3 feet. The most popular is the “step and a reach†concept. Here is another one. The dimensions of a regulation batter’s box are 6’ X 4’. In the video, you see the runner starts near the foul line at 0:27, then at 0:29 deviates near the bottom of the RH batter’s box to avoid the tag. This is obviously a deviation of more than 3 feet. (see diagram)

I would call the runner out for OOBL.

Wow! You can sit by me.

[CS-Blue]

Like everyone else, I have nothing on the batter. He did what he could do...just stand there. If he would have moved forward or backward, he may have actually moved into a BI call.

As for the runner, he is CLEARLY out of the baseline. On the second tag attempt, he goes way wide and to the bottom of the right batter's box. By math alone, he was outside of the 3-foot path from where he started after the initial tag attempt. He was still within 1 foot of the baseline at that time, so ending up where he was after the second attempt put him roughly 4-feet away from his initial path.

But the PU would have a tough time seeing that from his position. All he needed to do was take about 2 or so steps to the right on the wild pitch and he could have made the right call on just how far out of the baseline the runner was.

[KLAH316]

"Why? These fields are awesome. No dust, no cleaning your shoes after the game, don't have to clean the plate at all really."

It's nice for not having to clean.... However, depending on where you are in the country and what time of year it is, it can be miserable!!

Last Labor Day I did a tournament in Vegas at the Big League Dreams complex that is all Turf from the backstop to the outfield and it was about 105+.... The heat coming off the turf was so bad it made my feet blister..... and I have never had an issue with my feet before or since!! I guess it would be great between October-March but here in the Southwest Desert it's not practical!!

[LMSANS]

"Why? These fields are awesome. No dust, no cleaning your shoes after the game, don't have to clean the plate at all really."

It's nice for not having to clean.... However, depending on where you are in the country and what time of year it is, it can be miserable!!

Last Labor Day I did a tournament in Vegas at the Big League Dreams complex that is all Turf from the backstop to the outfield and it was about 105+.... The heat coming off the turf was so bad it made my feet blister..... and I have never had an issue with my feet before or since!! I guess it would be great between October-March but here in the Southwest Desert it's not practical!!

I agree. I've done a lot of football on turf in Aug/Sep and the field becomes a sauna and I'm not in the desert!

[etignor11]

Man, that's a tough one but I'd have to call him out just for the fact that he went around his teammate in the batter's box. I think if he would have taken a sec to process the info he would have seen that the batter had moved to the back of the box during the action and the kid went around him so it would seem he would have had to have gone out of the base path to take that line to the plate. At least I think that would have been a good argument to make to the opposing side.

[mstaylor]

I watched it again to see where the 3 ft violation is. I have him coming in, stopping and the catcher trying to tag him.That step is back and a little to his right. As he moves again it to his right slightly, the catcher tries a second attempt and the runner bows his body but went no further out. That is not illegal. If you count it from where he started originally then you can get him but there was an attempt and an avoid, that sets a new baseline. Then there is a second attempt and avoid which makes a second baseline.

What you wind up with is a weird play and an umpire not in good position, but no violations.

[ring-em-up12]

I'm punching him out for being out of the BL all day. That call looks pretty easy. Also that whole play was just bad baseball.

A suicide squeeze is bad baseball?

Im sorry but in what world do you pull back on a "suicide squeeze" that was a dumb comment

[Jocko]

I think Fitt broke it down DEFINITIVELY and with visual aids, no less. Using the reference points he mentioned as landmarks, (i.e. the batter's box), mathematically and physically it appears R3 was OOBL. Going by what our esteemed colleague MSTaylor says, it's seems possible R3 was NOT OOBL. I wasn't there, so.... My opinion really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That being said, I'm not sure WHAT I would have ruled live and in real time. We can debate from now til doomsday, but it won't change anything or anyone's take on what THEY see in the video. That's why Instant Replay isn't viable. There will ALWAYS be cases of judgement. Maybe the REPLAY OFFICIAL will have to have final say, but it's still his judgement, right?