3 man mech, "D" pos.

[UmpTTS43]

Oh - are you an umpire in professional baseball?

You seem to be the guy with all the answers. Figure it out.

[UmpTTS43]

Look. It's obvious that you and Mazz diagree with what I have said. So be it. You don't have to like it, but the fact is, that is the way some things are run. I am finished justifying myself with those that have no interest in how things could possibly be done differenty. Thanks for the discussion though.

[BrianC14]

You seem to be the guy with all the answers. Figure it out.

No, I'm just one of the guys with the questions.

You're the one who's claiming to have all the answers.

I asked some pointed questions - such as "Why is U1 going out on a routine fly ball?" that you've refused to answer. That's just Umpiring 101.

Your attempts to change what are standard rotations used at most levels of baseball are like a guy with an answer in search of a question.

[BrianC14]

Look. It's obvious that you and Mazz diagree with what I have said. So be it. You don't have to like it, but the fact is, that is the way some things are run. I am finished justifying myself with those that have no interest in how things could possibly be done differenty. Thanks for the discussion though.

And thanks to you for not answering some pretty basic questions.

a) within crews in professional baseball

professional crews

You sound like that bureaucrat at the end of the Raiders of the Lost Ark movie...

Brody: "The Ark is a sorce of unspeakable power and it has to be researched."

Intelligence: "And it will be. I assure you Dr. Brody, Dr. Jones. We have top men working on it right now."

Indy: "Who?"

Intelligence: "Top... Men..."

Edited August 24, 2010 by BrianC14

[UmpTTS43]

And thanks to you for not answering some pretty basic questions.

And you're welcome. What's the point anyways? A lot of what I have put up has been met with prejudice and extreme skeptisism. Why am I to think that a reasonable answer to your questions will squash any doubts you may have? I'm not in the mood for stump the ump. If you don't like what I put up, cleanse it from your system and move on. If you find something helpful, put it in your tool box as another tool that is available for use.

But for sh*ts and giggles, as to the question why U1 went out on a can of corn? Maybe, quite maybe and even possibly, it's because that we, as a crew, decided that with R1 only, U1 go out on all fly balls in his coverage area.

Edited August 24, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[Umpire in Chief]

Okay lets let this one die. I don't think this is going anywhere useful.

It's been said many times in this and other sites when it comes to mechanics "When in Rome..."

Certain groups and associations use their own mechanics deviations.

Lets wrap this one up. Please.

[mazzamouth]

You will hardly find a clinic that teaches advanced mechanics based on crew capabilities and crew understandings. Often because of limited time, what you will find at clinics are instructions on the standard mechanics, with the occational advanced/optional mechanic. Once you have a solid understanding of the 3 man system and how it works, experience in reading the development of plays, and trust in your partners, crews will often add mechanics such as these in order to maximize the coverage on particular plays. With standard mechanics, it is often the case where one partner has to read his other partner and adjust. With advanced situations, not only do you adjust and read your partner, but read how the play is developing the same as your partner. If you are not on the same page, things can and will go wrong.

Well i went to the Mid America advance 3-man clinic last sep, with teachers like Joe Burleson ( AAA evaluator, CWS, Olympics).. Chris Coskey CWS guy, Greg Chittenden.. Former AAA guy.. who did teach us a bunch of advance stuff.. but never crossing into foul ground on a slide rotation.. it's cool.. I'm done with this thread here, as it is getting no where. Peace.

[UmpTTS43]

Well i went to the Mid America advance 3-man clinic last sep, with teachers like Joe Burleson ( AAA evaluator, CWS, Olympics).. Chris Coskey CWS guy, Greg Chittenden.. Former AAA guy.. who did teach us a bunch of advance stuff.. but never crossing into foul ground on a slide rotation.. it's cool.. I'm done with this thread here, as it is getting no where. Peace.

I agree. College mechanics differ greatly. I will be attending the MAAUC , again, this Sept. Hope to see you there. It is a great clinic to be observed.

Edited August 25, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[UmpTTS43]

Maybe, quite maybe ....

And to think that I am trying to come off as an elequent umpire. :TD:

[yawetag]

I agree. College mechanics differ greatly. I will be attending the MAAUC , again, this Sept. Hope to see you there. It is a great clinic to be observed.

http://umpireclinic.weebly.com/2010-clinic.html

I think the kid in the red shirt is Richie Gonzalez, an umpire in the Midwest League.

[mazzamouth]

I agree. College mechanics differ greatly. I will be attending the MAAUC , again, this Sept. Hope to see you there. It is a great clinic to be observed.

you were there last year? what is your name? you can PM me if you like

[mstaylor]

I have now read this whole thread without afdding anything. I wanted to add a little then echo UIC's appeal to wind it up.

We used to teach pro mecnanics to our group but because many allso work college we switched to college mechanics. Most of the minor league stuff we do is fill-in in A ball so we don't need three man. If an AAA or AA crew diviates from their normal mechanivs that is their choice and because they work together every day that's fine. In your local assoc if you create modifications assoc wide then go for it but I question the logic. If you don't do it assoc wide and you don't work every game with the same crew you are asking for trouble. I'm not saying there is never a need for plug a hole mechanics but regular deviations have to standard with-in your group or you are going to cause something to blow up on you sometime.

The standard mechanics are talked out and planned by some pretty good umpires and changing them is a questionable idea at best, terrible idea at worst. Freeelance mechanics are always a bad idea.

[D62 blue]

Decent card for starting out, but it is not for "pro" mechanics.

actually i believe this is pro 3-man . this cheat card , is adopted to LL field . however u can easily use the same mechanics on the 90 ft. diamond , for B , C you are inside instead of out . this is taught at Western region LL clinics , and was adopted from the jim evans academy in AZ . i personally know several WR LL instructors who went to the jim evans school and adopted the pro mechanic from JE school many years ago .

D62 marc

[zm1283]

There are some advanced mechanics where if U3 reads R1 rounding hard, he can go to his position in foul territory. When this happens, U1 will have any play at second on R1 if he retreats.

I would not recommend this mechanic for umpires that are getting familiar with the three man system. Unless the base umpires are absolutely on the same page, as is with any advanced mechanic, standard mechanics should be utilized.

I know this may rehash this whole argument, but I thought I would add it anyway. I was at a AA playoff game last night and they were using 4 umpires. There were R1 and R2. B1 hits a double to left center and U3 goes out from the D position. U2, who started on the inside, took R1 to third base as U1 took plays at first and second. U2 definitely went into foul ground to take the play at third on R1 who was advancing there. You may not like this mechanic or choose to do it, but it is used.

TTS, I'm not really replying directly to you, I just quoted your post so everyone would know what I'm posting about.

[zm1283]

mazz and BrianC14,

Was reading through some of these threads again earlier and wanted to reply to this one. You asked where it was taught that U3 would move into foul territory when U1 slides inside with R1/R2 or bases loaded. At the Mid-American Advanced Clinic this last September (The same one you went to last year Mazz) they were teaching this exact mechanic. I can't say the same for some of the other ones that UMPTTS was talking about, but this one (The one that I posted about originally that got the debate started) was most definitely endorsed.

A couple others:

- When the PU rotates to third with R1 or R1/R3 and a base hit, that instead of taking the play at third from the cutout, he can take it from foul territory behind third base.

- With R3 or no runners on and the base umpires on the wings and a base hit or ground ball, instead of coming inside to the cutout in front of second base, U3 can come to the outside of second base and take the possible play on the BR from outside instead of inside.

[yawetag]

A couple others:

- When the PU rotates to third with R1 or R1/R3 and a base hit, that instead of taking the play at third from the cutout, he can take it from foul territory behind third base.

- With R3 or no runners on and the base umpires on the wings and a base hit or ground ball, instead of coming inside to the cutout in front of second base, U3 can come to the outside of second base and take the possible play on the BR from outside instead of inside.

And what are the reasonings for these? It seems like it's the lazy way out of the situations.

[zm1283]

A couple others:

- When the PU rotates to third with R1 or R1/R3 and a base hit, that instead of taking the play at third from the cutout, he can take it from foul territory behind third base.

- With R3 or no runners on and the base umpires on the wings and a base hit or ground ball, instead of coming inside to the cutout in front of second base, U3 can come to the outside of second base and take the possible play on the BR from outside instead of inside.

And what are the reasonings for these? It seems like it's the lazy way out of the situations.

Not laziness at all. It seems like a lot of them are derived from positioning in 4-umpire mechanics. These were explained to us as being advanced mechanics that are being used in AA and AAA. The instructors are top notch, so I trust they aren't teaching these mechanics at a clinic so we can be lazy.

One more example: R2/R3 (Or just R2) with 2 outs. U1 is in A and U3 in C. On a base hit, U3 takes R2 to third base and U1 takes the BR to second base on a double. U1 can go inside and pivot or trail the BR to second base and take the play there from the outside. (The CCA manual says there is to be no rotation on this play - U1 stays at first and U3 has all plays at second and third)

There was a big emphasis on different ways of taking plays. For example, some of the instructors like taking steal plays at third base from "D" from fair territory and others liked setting up in foul territory.

[yawetag]

Not laziness at all. It seems like a lot of them are derived from positioning in 4-umpire mechanics. These were explained to us as being advanced mechanics that are being used in AA and AAA. The instructors are top notch, so I trust they aren't teaching these mechanics at a clinic so we can be lazy.

I didn't mean for it to be an attack on the instructors, and apologize if it came out that way.

I'm simply trying to understand WHY you would do it. Why put yourself in a different (sometimes worse) position for a play when there's no advantage to it? I could understand if it was to help you in moving to a new position, but each of three you've given are situations where the base you're moving to is the last place you're going to be.

[UmpTTS43]

Not laziness at all. It seems like a lot of them are derived from positioning in 4-umpire mechanics. These were explained to us as being advanced mechanics that are being used in AA and AAA. The instructors are top notch, so I trust they aren't teaching these mechanics at a clinic so we can be lazy.

I didn't mean for it to be an attack on the instructors, and apologize if it came out that way.

I'm simply trying to understand WHY you would do it. Why put yourself in a different (sometimes worse) position for a play when there's no advantage to it? I could understand if it was to help you in moving to a new position, but each of three you've given are situations where the base you're moving to is the last place you're going to be.

Just because there is a black dot on a field diagram does not mean that that is the best or optimum position for every play. The reasoning behind these different philosophies is to improve your positioning, not worsen it. There is the science of umpiring and the art of umpiring. Mechanics manuals and rulebooks will give you the basis of the science of umpiring. Reading a play, reacting to it and finding the best position possible, regardless of where your finishing position is, is an art. Same with applying rules while using the spirit of the rule and common sense versus the letter of the law.

In 3 man mechanics, with PU rotating to third, the PU must read his cues. The first cue is whether the crew has reverted to 2 man, someone going out, or there is a 3 man rotation, U1 covering home plate. If the crew has reverted to a 2 man rotation, it is important that the PU take the play into third in fair territory. PU does this because in the event of an overthrow, PU is responsible for any play at the plate, and he can get into position by running to his position in fair territory, thereby keeping the runner and ball in front of him. If it is a 3 man rotation, where U1 has plate responsibilities, PU can stay in foul territory while reading the play with the entire field in front of him. This is the same philosophy as PU taking his initial position for plays at the plate at the point of the plate, reading the play, then adjusting. You can use this same philosophy when taking plays on the bases. With PU in foul territory at third, he can take the position of "point of the play", read the play and adjust accordingly. This philosophy is especially helpful when the play at third is a result of a throw from right field. Instead of busting into the cutout, reading the throw and letting the ball turn you, possibly hindering your view on a close play due to abrupt head movement, the PU can simply stay in foul territory keeping everything in front of him, reading the throw, fielder and runner, and adjusting accordingly.

This point of the play philosophy on the bases is the best way to read all factors (ball, fielder, runner) in determining your optimum position. Here are two examples of adjusting to the point of the play at second. 1) U3 has second base responsibility. On a ball hit to the outfield, U3 can line up the throw with the base, usually at the cutout, and adjust accordingly. 2) R1. Ball hit to right field. U3 has R1 until he commits to 3rd, then picks up BR. R1 attempts to go home. Throw from F9 goes to the plate. BR rounds second where F2 fires to second in an attempt to retire BR. As U3, once R1 commits to 3rd, you read BR. Once BR commits to 2nd, you read the throw. When you read the throw home, U3 can go to the outside of the diamond, going behind BR. On the throw back into 2nd, U3 has the entire play in front of him, base, ball, fielder, runner, and can adjust accordingly. From this position, U3 is able to read the throw and any possible infractions, ie obstruction. If U3 stayed at the cutout, while reading the ball, the runner, fielder and base would be behind him and U3 would then again have to turn with the ball, following it into the glove, and possibly miss any infraction that could occur, not to mention having to adjust his eyes after the abrupt head movement.

The philosophy of U1 taking the play on the outside, during a slide rotation, is similar. This slide occurs with bases loaded or R1,R2 with BR going to 2nd. Again, U1 must read the ball and determine what the most likely senario to be. Percentages say that in the situation where there is a clean hit to the outfield and BR advances to 2nd, the ball will be coming into the infield for a possible play at the plate or into the cutoff man. By U1 moving on the outside of the infield, he can establish his point of the play in the event that a subsequent play developes at 2nd. If U1 reads that the initial throw and play will be at 2nd on the BR, he can still go to the outside on a ball hit to the outfield thereby keeping the ball inbetween him and the runner in the event that the ball slips out of the glove during the tag. This is esspecially true with a left handed fielder making the play at second. The open side of his glove will be towards the outfield and U1 will have a great view if the ball squirts out. What if the fielder is right handed? On balls hit to center or right field, percentages say that the tag will be on the outside of the bag. Therefore having U1 on the outside will have the ball and glove inbetween the runner and himself. On a throw from left field, the fielder most likely will receive the throw on the 3rd base side of the bag and either swipe tag or place his glove in front of the bag. Here it could be advantageous for U1 to be in the cutout in order to keep the open side of the glove and ball inbetween himself and the runner for the same reasons of being able to keep an eye on the ball in the event it squirts out. In all cases, U1 must read the play and adjust accordingly.

Anytime the ball goes to the plate, the base umpires' best point of the play positioning is on the outside of the diamond with a 1 runner 1 umpire situation. If a base umpire has responsibilties for 2 runners, 2 bases, he has to split his coverage on the infield side.

These are examples of utilizing the art of umpiring. Taking all information, percentages of the most likely play, reading of the situation and getting into the best possible position for the play.

I try to teach others that the manuals are there so that you know what your responsibilties are and give you a good reference point. Knowing your responsibilities lets you develop your optimum positioning while keeping in mind any subsequent or secondary responsibilties. Optimum positioning is not running to an imaginary black dot on the field.

Once an umpire has mastered the science of umpiring, the ability to develop his own personal art of umpiring becomes easier. You can't walk until you crawl. Learn the science, turn it into an artform.

[alex7]

UmpTTs,

maybe it's not on purpose, but your writing style comes off as very condescending. I'm guessing everyone here knows that a dot on a manual isn't a mandatory landing spot. Ten lines on how umpiring is an art form, when others have simply disagreed with some of the advanced mechanics and asked questions, is ten lines too many.

The point of these forums is to ask and answer questions for those of us not in the inner circle of professional umpires. To throw in a bunch of advanced mechanics, not answer who is teaching them, not answer questions about them...that just muddles things.

[UmpTTS43]

UmpTTs,

maybe it's not on purpose, but your writing style comes off as very condescending. I'm guessing everyone here knows that a dot on a manual isn't a mandatory landing spot. Ten lines on how umpiring is an art form, when others have simply disagreed with some of the advanced mechanics and asked questions, is ten lines too many.

The point of these forums is to ask and answer questions for those of us not in the inner circle of professional umpires. To throw in a bunch of advanced mechanics, not answer who is teaching them, not answer questions about them...that just muddles things.

I understand how my writing can come off as condescending, I am to the point. The mechanics I talked about in my previous post are mechanics that are used in amateur ball at the college level, was brought up as such, and is taught at advanced umpire clinics geared towards the college game. There is no "inner circle". I don't see what is wrong with discussing mechanics, both routine and advanced. Forums such as these offer platforms for philosophies to be discussed and debated. A poster asked why a certain mechanic was used, when at face value, it seemed that there was no benefit to it. I tried to explain, to the best of my ability, the reason these mechanics are used, and if used correctly, can put you in a better position to umpire the play.

There is a reason and thought process behind every mechanic. Often, these reasons and thought processes are not used in explaining why a specific mechanic is used for a specific situation. The usual answer resembles "'cause the ______ manual says so" or "that's not right. It's not in the book." It is my belief and experience that if an umpire knows the why's to a rule or mechanic, the better he understands it and applies it.

I hope I didn't just muddle things up. :D

[zm1283]

UmpTTs,

maybe it's not on purpose, but your writing style comes off as very condescending. I'm guessing everyone here knows that a dot on a manual isn't a mandatory landing spot. Ten lines on how umpiring is an art form, when others have simply disagreed with some of the advanced mechanics and asked questions, is ten lines too many.

The point of these forums is to ask and answer questions for those of us not in the inner circle of professional umpires. To throw in a bunch of advanced mechanics, not answer who is teaching them, not answer questions about them...that just muddles things.

We did answer who is teaching them.

If you don't like to hear about other philosophies/mechanics/ways to handle situations, then just discard them after you read them. It never hurts to hear other perspectives and ways to do things. If they don't work for you, that is fine. When reading a forum like this, take what you do think you'll use and put it in your "toolbox" and ignore the rest of it.