3 man mech, "D" pos.

[Guest]

as i just posted, who taught you this.. I have been to clinics where a evaluator of AAA said you will not go into foul for a call there. And all of the 3 man clinics I have been too no one has ever said go into foul.

+1

I know the B-Can 3-man system inside, out, and backwards.

I have watched a few AAA games and identified the differences in the various rotations between what we use and what MiLB uses.

At no point have I ever seen or been taught, as U3, to take the call at 3B on a slide rotation in foul territory.

You say there is an advanced mechanic to move to foul territory if R1 "rounds hard"...how exactly do you purpose getting into position quickly enough?

85% of umpires would never be able to arrive at 3B in time. Let alone U1 who has to react to his partner, clear a baseline, and make it to the working area.

[UmpTTS43]

as i just posted, who taught you this.. I have been to clinics where a evaluator of AAA said you will not go into foul for a call there. And all of the 3 man clinics I have been too no one has ever said go into foul.

This is an advanced pro 3 man mechanic. Use it and have seen it used. Everyone has to be on the same page. Mechanics evolve. There is more than one way to handle any given play, especially considering the situation and where the throw originates from. As long as everything is covered and you have the optimum positioning, why debate it.

[BrianC14]

This is an advanced pro 3 man mechanic. Use it and have seen it used. Everyone has to be on the same page. Mechanics evolve. There is more than one way to handle any given play, especially considering the situation and where the throw originates from. As long as everything is covered and you have the optimum positioning, why debate it.

What's so optimum about running the extra distance? What's the advantage to being in foul territory? Bear in mind here that the base coach is going to be over that way, and if R1 is cornering for a run at 3B, it's quite likely that the base coach will be moving around. Why bother with that whole headache?

[UmpTTS43]

What's so optimum about running the extra distance? What's the advantage to being in foul territory? Bear in mind here that the base coach is going to be over that way, and if R1 is cornering for a run at 3B, it's quite likely that the base coach will be moving around. Why bother with that whole headache?

By getting into foul territory, you are able to line up the base with the throw and adjust accordingly. Similar to starting at the point of the plate for a play there. There are times where the third baseman will be stationed inside the cutout for the throw there. If you are in the cutout, you have the real possibilty of the fielder being inbetween you and the tag. There are many considerations in play when trying to get the best view of the play, position of the fielder, where the throw is originating from, if the throw is on line/off line, runner sliding to inside/outside corner. Any one of those considerations can block you from view. Being inside reduces your adjustment options, especially if you have to track a ball thrown from right field, over your shoulder, then to the play. As far as the base coach, as in any play at third on a rotation, if he is in the way, I will move him.

[mazzamouth]

This is an advanced pro 3 man mechanic. Use it and have seen it used. Everyone has to be on the same page. Mechanics evolve. There is more than one way to handle any given play, especially considering the situation and where the throw originates from. As long as everything is covered and you have the optimum positioning, why debate it.

Are we talking about the MiLB guys or your LL minor's? Not once in a AAA or AA game will you see this happen, it's is not being taught. I want to know who taught you this....

What clinic did you go to that this was taught?

[BrianC14]

Are we talking about the MiLB guys or your LL minor's? Not once in a AAA or AA game will you see this happen, it's is not being taught. I want to know who taught you this....

What clinic did you go to that this was taught?

I'd like to hear this, too, because I still don't see any big advantage to it... where's this being taught ?

[UmpTTS43]

Are we talking about the MiLB guys or your LL minor's? Not once in a AAA or AA game will you see this happen, it's is not being taught. I want to know who taught you this....

What clinic did you go to that this was taught?

So you've seen every game huh. There are a lot of things that are not taught, but with experience, you learn and utilize. Like I said, you don't have to like it, approve of it, or believe in its merits, but it is a rotation that is used, when the play dictates its possibility. I'm sure there are other mechanics in three man that you haven't heard about or seen but are in use. When you work with a crew where everyone trusts each other and you know where they are, you can do a lot more reading of the plays and making adjustments.

With the mechanic I shared, it is not a given unless the play dictates its use. Here are a few other examples you may or may not have heard of.

With R1, ever see PU go up to cover first when U1 goes out on a fly ball? It happens.

With R3, instead of U3 coming in, ever see U3 stay put to line up the tag and have U1 come in and take BR regardless of where the fly ball is hit? It happens.

With R2, 2 out, R2 scoring on a DBL by BR, ever see U3 stay inside and take BR if U1 doesn't go out or with same sitch, have U1 come in and push U3 to third? Both of these happen, it depends on the type of play that develops and what coverage it dictates.

With R1 only or R1, R3, ever see a rotation cancelled, as the pitch is delivered, with the PU staying home and with U1, U3 sliding on the clean hit? It happens.

Once you get past the science of umpiring, (mechanic manual says to do 'this' when 'this' happens), and get to the art of umpiring, (being able to read situations, plays, how they are developing and as a crew adjust accordingly) there are many adjustments that a crew can make so that the optimum coverage is being used for that particular play.

Edited August 24, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[zm1283]

I can tell you for sure that I've seen the mechanic in question used at numerous AA games in the past few seasons.

[mazzamouth]

With R1, ever see PU go up to cover first when U1 goes out on a fly ball? It happens. This is suppose to happen...LOL

With R3, instead of U3 coming in, ever see U3 stay put to line up the tag and have U1 come in and take BR regardless of where the fly ball is hit? It happens. You can, but PU still is responsible for the tag up

With R2, 2 out, R2 scoring on a DBL by BR, ever see U3 stay inside and take BR if U1 doesn't go out or with same sitch, have U1 come in and push U3 to third? Both of these happen, it depends on the type of play that develops and what coverage it dictates. If U3 is already at 2nd, who is suppose to take BR?

With R1 only or R1, R3, ever see a rotation cancelled, as the pitch is delivered, with the PU staying home and with U1, U3 sliding on the clean hit? It happens. I have never seen a rotation when a pitch is delivered?, so how can it be canceled?

.

Go ahead and read what i put in bold up there..

[mazzamouth]

By getting into foul territory, you are able to line up the base with the throw and adjust accordingly. Similar to starting at the point of the plate for a play there. There are times where the third baseman will be stationed inside the cutout for the throw there. If you are in the cutout, you have the real possibilty of the fielder being inbetween you and the tag. There are many considerations in play when trying to get the best view of the play, position of the fielder, where the throw is originating from, if the throw is on line/off line, runner sliding to inside/outside corner. Any one of those considerations can block you from view. Being inside reduces your adjustment options, especially if you have to track a ball thrown from right field, over your shoulder, then to the play. As far as the base coach, as in any play at third on a rotation, if he is in the way, I will move him.

this is the post that makes me laugh.... you say by staying inside you be looking at A**holes and elbows, but you can look at the same thing from foul ..LOL

[BrianC14]

I'm still waiting for an answer to Mazz's question :

What clinic did you go to that this was taught?

[UmpTTS43]

With R1, ever see PU go up to cover first when U1 goes out on a fly ball? It happens. This is suppose to happen...LOL

Not by the book. With R1 and U1 going out, this is a standard 2-man rotation.

With R3, instead of U3 coming in, ever see U3 stay put to line up the tag and have U1 come in and take BR regardless of where the fly ball is hit? It happens. You can, but PU still is responsible for the tag up

The whole point of the mechanic is so that U3 is responsible for the tag up of R3 not the PU.

With R2, 2 out, R2 scoring on a DBL by BR, ever see U3 stay inside and take BR if U1 doesn't go out or with same sitch, have U1 come in and push U3 to third? Both of these happen, it depends on the type of play that develops and what coverage it dictates. If U3 is already at 2nd, who is suppose to take BR?

As stated, it depends on how the play develops. U1 can have the touch at first and let U3 take him at second or U1 can come in and pivot and take BR to second, pushing U3 to third. It all depends on where the play is at.

With R1 only or R1, R3, ever see a rotation cancelled, as the pitch is delivered, with the PU staying home and with U1, U3 sliding on the clean hit? It happens. I have never seen a rotation when a pitch is delivered?, so how can it be canceled?

Standard mechanics, with no one going out, has both situations, R1, R1 and R3, as rotations on a clean hit to the outfield. There are times when this rotation is aborted, due to actions of the runners, when the pitcher commits to the plate. When the rotation is aborted, U1 comes in and takes BR to second. U3 slides to third.

[UmpTTS43]

this is the post that makes me laugh.... you say by staying inside you be looking at A**holes and elbows, but you can look at the same thing from foul ..LOL

I said that by staying in fair territory, there is that possibility of being blocked by the fielder with limited adjustment options. If you are looking at the same thing from foul, then you have not used any sort of read to adapt to the play and are out of position.

[mazzamouth]

Standard mechanics, with no one going out, has both situations, R1, R1 and R3, as rotations on a clean hit to the outfield. There are times when this rotation is aborted, due to actions of the runners, when the pitcher commits to the plate. When the rotation is aborted, U1 comes in and takes BR to second. U3 slides to third.

this I know I have never heard of... canceling a rotation during the pitch?... with R1 and a clean hit to the outfield, this is always a rotation.

I will have to email a few people, but I think your talking out of your ass..

[Guest]

So you've seen every game huh. There are a lot of things that are not taught, but with experience, you learn and utilize. Like I said, you don't have to like it, approve of it, or believe in its merits, but it is a rotation that is used, when the play dictates its possibility. I'm sure there are other mechanics in three man that you haven't heard about or seen but are in use. When you work with a crew where everyone trusts each other and you know where they are, you can do a lot more reading of the plays and making adjustments.

With the mechanic I shared, it is not a given unless the play dictates its use. Here are a few other examples you may or may not have heard of.

With R1, ever see PU go up to cover first when U1 goes out on a fly ball? It happens.

With R3, instead of U3 coming in, ever see U3 stay put to line up the tag and have U1 come in and take BR regardless of where the fly ball is hit? It happens.

With R2, 2 out, R2 scoring on a DBL by BR, ever see U3 stay inside and take BR if U1 doesn't go out or with same sitch, have U1 come in and push U3 to third? Both of these happen, it depends on the type of play that develops and what coverage it dictates.

With R1 only or R1, R3, ever see a rotation cancelled, as the pitch is delivered, with the PU staying home and with U1, U3 sliding on the clean hit? It happens.

Once you get past the science of umpiring, (mechanic manual says to do 'this' when 'this' happens), and get to the art of umpiring, (being able to read situations, plays, how they are developing and as a crew adjust accordingly) there are many adjustments that a crew can make so that the optimum coverage is being used for that particular play.

The whole point of having standardized mechanics is to make sure that everyone on the field knows exactly where they are going when the ball is hit.

Whoever teaches for PU to come up the line on a fly ball with R1 forgot something very important...if that ball drops, you now have 2 runners for one umpire. Not to mention the lack of overthrow coverage if PU is waiting at the cut-out to make a call at 1B. That is why R1 is the responsibility of U1 if that ball is caught.

How the hell do you suggest, with R3, U3 staying put to watch a tag and U1 coming in? Gee, who has fly ball coverage there?

One of the umpires goes out. The other comes in. PU has the tag. End of story.

Your third scenario: KISS - one runner, one umpire. R2 is going to be waved around. Why have a slide in this scenario? You just put another member of the crew in the infield, potentially creating a hazard for an defensive player trying to shoot R2 at the dish.

#4

This creates way too much trouble...cancelling a rotation requires the whole crew to be alert to a steal attempt. Not so hard right? Well, watch a rotation get f-ed up when there is a delayed steal. Or a bluff by the runner.

The only time you wave off a rotation is R1 (or R1 and R3) with a 3-2 count and 2 out. Because you know the guy on first is going to be going on the pitch.

The one thing I see in common with everything you present is that it assumes that something routine is going to happen on the play.

Well, an umpire far better than I will ever be likes to say "surprise is an umpire's worst enemy."

[Guest]

this I know I have never heard of... canceling a rotation during the pitch?... with R1 and a clean hit to the outfield, this is always a rotation.

I will have to email a few people, but I think your talking out of your ass..

Check the end of my next post.

With 3-2 and 2 out, you have the option to wave it off, as R1 has a 90 foot running head start on PU.

But that's not exactly during the pitch...

[UmpTTS43]

I'm still waiting for an answer to Mazz's question :

What clinic did you go to that this was taught?

You will hardly find a clinic that teaches advanced mechanics based on crew capabilities and crew understandings. Often because of limited time, what you will find at clinics are instructions on the standard mechanics, with the occational advanced/optional mechanic. Once you have a solid understanding of the 3 man system and how it works, experience in reading the development of plays, and trust in your partners, crews will often add mechanics such as these in order to maximize the coverage on particular plays. With standard mechanics, it is often the case where one partner has to read his other partner and adjust. With advanced situations, not only do you adjust and read your partner, but read how the play is developing the same as your partner. If you are not on the same page, things can and will go wrong.

Take for example the situation that I posted previously.

R1 only, less than 2 outs. Ball hit to U1's coverage area and U1 goes out. Standard mechanics has this as a 2 man rotation. If the ball is caught, U3 picks up R1 and takes him either to second on a tag up or back to first. If the ball is down, U3 has plays at first and second on R1 and first, second and third on the BR. PU has plays at third on R1. The only thing guys have to read is whether U1 goes out or not and adjust acoordingly.

With the advanced mechanic, not only does U3 and PU read U1, but PU reads the ball also. If U1 goes out and PU reads the ball as a routine catch, PU comes up the first base line for the play back into first on R1 on a catch. Now we have coverage on both sides of R1 in the event something else happens, overthrow for example. If the ball does fall, U3 has all plays on the bases while PU goes back to home, when/if R1 commits to third. If PU reads the ball as a trouble ball, he starts up the third base line in the event the ball is down and R1 attempts to go to third.

The correct read by the PU is crutial. In the event that a misread occurs and the PU goes up the first base line, it puts U3 at a disadvantage in having to cover everything on the bases. Now the goal of maximizing coverage has turned into the least beneficial coverage.

"Yeah, but if the ball is down and the PU is at first, there is no one at third for that play. Why even do it at all. That is a stupid mechanic."

Understanding that the PU goes to first only on a routine catch means that if the ball is down, it is usually because the ball is dropped by the fielder. In that situation since R1 should be about half way, there could be a possible force out at second of R1. U3 has time to get optimum positioning while PU has plays on BR at first. You can never say never, but R1 will never go to third when a fielder drops a routine fly ball.

This is exactly why some mechanics are not taught at clinics because they are trying to get the students to understand the basics in the short time that is allowed. I can discuss various options, reads, reactions and philosophies to this particular mechanic for a good hour. Clinics do not have the luxury of time. They use the standard book mentality, "When my partner does this, I do this."

That is my short answer. :D

Edited August 24, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[UmpTTS43]

The whole point of having standardized mechanics is to make sure that everyone on the field knows exactly where they are going when the ball is hit.

Whoever teaches for PU to come up the line on a fly ball with R1 forgot something very important...if that ball drops, you now have 2 runners for one umpire. Not to mention the lack of overthrow coverage if PU is waiting at the cut-out to make a call at 1B. That is why R1 is the responsibility of U1 if that ball is caught.

How the hell do you suggest, with R3, U3 staying put to watch a tag and U1 coming in? Gee, who has fly ball coverage there?

One of the umpires goes out. The other comes in. PU has the tag. End of story.

Your third scenario: KISS - one runner, one umpire. R2 is going to be waved around. Why have a slide in this scenario? You just put another member of the crew in the infield, potentially creating a hazard for an defensive player trying to shoot R2 at the dish.

#4

This creates way too much trouble...cancelling a rotation requires the whole crew to be alert to a steal attempt. Not so hard right? Well, watch a rotation get f-ed up when there is a delayed steal. Or a bluff by the runner.

The only time you wave off a rotation is R1 (or R1 and R3) with a 3-2 count and 2 out. Because you know the guy on first is going to be going on the pitch.

The one thing I see in common with everything you present is that it assumes that something routine is going to happen on the play.

Well, an umpire far better than I will ever be likes to say "surprise is an umpire's worst enemy."

I don't expect you to understand all the philosophies, at face value, behind some of the thought processes in using these mechanics. Just understand that there is more to coverage than simply running to a spot. As I stated before, it comes down to crew knowledge, experience and trust.

Edited August 24, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[UmpTTS43]

this I know I have never heard of... canceling a rotation during the pitch?... with R1 and a clean hit to the outfield, this is always a rotation.

I will have to email a few people, but I think your talking out of your ass..

Yeah, I just sit around and make sh*t up. Believe me, I'm not smart enough to come up with these on my own.

[BrianC14]

See Mazz - these are "advanced" mechanics.

Mere mortals simply aren't capable of understanding such advanced concepts, which are, apparently, taught at the University of .... Mars.

Oh - wait - cancel that rotation.... :rolleyes:

[UmpTTS43]

See Mazz - these are "advanced" mechanics.

Mere mortals simply aren't capable of understanding such advanced concepts, which are, apparently, taught at the University of .... Mars.

Oh - wait - cancel that rotation....

Obviously, you are not getting the point. Far be it from me to show and demonstrate how mechanics are not set in stone. Maybe since you are unwilling to accept the fact that adjustments are made and that some different mechanics, no matter how different they sound or are not part of some clinic setting, are used, you should stick to your x's and o's in regards to your mechanic manuals. Hope they don't update them anytime soon. I would hate to see you have to adjust to a new mechanic that wasn't accepted just a year ago.

[BrianC14]

Obviously, you are not getting the point. Far be it from me to show and demonstrate how mechanics are not set in stone. Maybe since you are unwilling to accept the fact that adjustments are made and that some different mechanics, no matter how different they sound or are not part of some clinic setting, are used, you should stick to your x's and o's in regards to your mechanic manuals. Hope they don't update them anytime soon. I would hate to see you have to adjust to a new mechanic that wasn't accepted just a year ago.

No, I never said that. I have three revised copies of the CCA as evidence that I understand that some times mechanics DO change.

So let's get back to the question, since you've avoided a direct answer, why not just answer two very straightforward questions:

a) Where these mechanics taught?

"Accepted" - by what association(s) ?

[UmpTTS43]

No, I never said that. I have three revised copies of the CCA as evidence that I understand that some times mechanics DO change.

So let's get back to the question, since you've avoided a direct answer, why not just answer two very straightforward questions:

a) Where these mechanics taught?

"Accepted" - by what association(s) ?

a) within crews in professional baseball

professional crews

There straight forward enough for you.

[BrianC14]

You will hardly find a clinic that teaches advanced mechanics based on crew capabilities and crew understandings. Often because of limited time, what you will find at clinics are instructions on the standard mechanics, with the occational advanced/optional mechanic. Once you have a solid understanding of the 3 man system and how it works, experience in reading the development of plays, and trust in your partners, crews will often add mechanics such as these in order to maximize the coverage on particular plays. With standard mechanics, it is often the case where one partner has to read his other partner and adjust. With advanced situations, not only do you adjust and read your partner, but read how the play is developing the same as your partner. If you are not on the same page, things can and will go wrong.

Nothing "advanced" about this. It's umpiring 101.

Take for example the situation that I posted previously.

R1 only, less than 2 outs. Ball hit to U1's coverage area and U1 goes out. Standard mechanics has this as a 2 man rotation. If the ball is caught, U3 picks up R1 and takes him either to second on a tag up or back to first. If the ball is down, U3 has plays at first and second on R1 and first, second and third on the BR. PU has plays at third on R1. The only thing guys have to read is whether U1 goes out or not and adjust acoordingly.

With the advanced mechanic, not only does U3 and PU read U1, but PU reads the ball also. If U1 goes out and PU reads the ball as a routine catch, PU comes up the first base line for the play back into first on R1 on a catch.

And if F9 happens to drop this "routine catch" - now what do you have? PU is at first base - no way can he get to 3B in time for any play there, so U3 has to take it... and if a play develops there, you have the risk of a backdoor play at second... who's covering that? Plate umpire? That might be reasonable... unless R1 is safe on the play at third, and then he decides to head for home. Uh-oh.... we've done advanced ourselves into a clusterflop.

Now we have coverage on both sides of R1 in the event something else happens, overthrow for example. If the ball does fall, U3 has all plays on the bases while PU goes back to home, when/if R1 commits to third. If PU reads the ball as a trouble ball, he starts up the third base line in the event the ball is down and R1 attempts to go to third.

The correct read by the PU is crutial. In the event that a misread occurs and the PU goes up the first base line, it puts U3 at a disadvantage in having to cover everything on the bases. Now the goal of maximizing coverage has turned into the least beneficial coverage.

Right - which is along the lines of what I posed up above. This could turn into a clusterflop if PU simply misreads, or perhaps overcommits up 1B line, or - if F9 drops the routine fly ball. By the way - you mentioned the routine fly ball here.... why would U1 go out on a can of corn?

"Yeah, but if the ball is down and the PU is at first, there is no one at third for that play. Why even do it at all. That is a stupid mechanic."

Understanding that the PU goes to first only on a routine catch means that if the ball is down, it is usually because the ball is dropped by the fielder. In that situation since R1 should be about half way, there could be a possible force out at second of R1. U3 has time to get optimum positioning while PU has plays on BR at first. You can never say never, but R1 will never go to third when a fielder drops a routine fly ball.

Oh really? One of the longest throws from the outfield is F9 to F5... and R1 will "never" go to 3rd on a dropped ball? Even though F9 has the potential for throwing out BR at either first or perhaps second? Color me skeptical. And again - why is U1 going out on a routine ball? If R1 does decide to try for third, then the beginning of the clusterflop may be at hand.

This is exactly why some mechanics are not taught at clinics because they are trying to get the students to understand the basics in the short time that is allowed. I can discuss various options, reads, reactions and philosophies to this particular mechanic for a good hour. Clinics do not have the luxury of time. They use the standard book mentality, "When my partner does this, I do this."

That is my short answer.

Your short answer has lots of holes, I think.

Edited August 24, 2010 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

a) within crews in professional baseball

professional crews

There straight forward enough for you.

Oh - are you an umpire in professional baseball?