Courtesy Runner

[TX-UIC]

Team A's catcher, Johnson, is pinch-hit for by S1. S1 gets a hit, and the coach of Team A re-enters the catcher, Johnson for S1. With Johnson re-entered the coach can now use a courtesy runner for Johnson.

True / False... why?

[Richvee]

My initial response is no, you can't use a courtesy runner for Johnson, because Johnson technically isn't a Catcher at that moment, he's a pinch runner. Even if the HC tells you Johnson's going to catch again, that would be a projected substitution which is illegal as per 3.1.1

[Umpete]

Great question! Without having my rulebook/casebook in front of me, I would have to say Richvee is correct.

[AZump78]

I don't think the F2 would be a "pinch runner" in this case since he was a starter in the game and just re-entered. Pinch runners are players who come in "cold" off the bench.

However, my umpire gut still says this move is nefarious at best, and more than likely illegal. I do not have any NFHS books to back me up though. Any NFHS rule junkies wanna take this one on?

On a similar note-can someone explain to me why HS coaches do not bat their "no better than average" hitting catcher in the leadoff spot and just put in the little quick kid everytime he gets on?

[carolinablue]

I may be totally wrong here but isn't a pinch hitter nothing more than a sub. I understand the projected sub. logic but doesn't every player have to have a batting position and a fielding position in the line-up. Wouldn't the pinch hitter be the new F-2 now and then when the starter re-entered he is again the F-2. The coach is not trying to change any positions around, he is just making legal substitutions. If that is the case then he should be able to enter a courtesy runner for F-2 here. I couldn't really find this scenario in the case book and don't have a rule book handy. Good question. My question is , why re-enter Johnson. Why not just send out the courtesy runner.

[grayhawk]

I may be totally wrong here but isn't a pinch hitter nothing more than a sub. I understand the projected sub. logic but doesn't every player have to have a batting position and a fielding position in the line-up. Wouldn't the pinch hitter be the new F-2 now and then when the starter re-entered he is again the F-2. The coach is not trying to change any positions around, he is just making legal substitutions. If that is the case then he should be able to enter a courtesy runner for F-2 here. I couldn't really find this scenario in the case book and don't have a rule book handy. Good question. My question is , why re-enter Johnson. Why not just send out the courtesy runner.

Because it's not legal to do so:

2011 BRD: Page 320:

492. ALSO: Since projected substitutions are not allowed (Section 495), a coach may not, for example, pinch hit for his catcher and then, if he gets on base, send out a courtesy runner for the pinch hitter (3.1.1n)

*Play 252-482: FED only. Perry pinch hits for catcher Bubba and will catch during the next half-inning. Perry singles and is replaced by courtesy runner Brown. Ruling: Not legal. Despite the presence of a pinch hitter, Bubba was the catch at the end of the last half-inning; therefore, only Bubba is entitled to a courtesy runner in that half-inning.

Interesting the way it's worded. "Only Bubba is entitled to a courtesy runner in that half-inning." So if Bubba comes back in to pinch run, is he still entitled to a courtesy runner? I don't think so. Once Perry pinch hits for Bubba, any mention of defensive positions would be considered to be a projected substitution. Let's keep in mind that the CR rule is a "speed up" rule. I don't see the game speeding up with all this monkey business going on with the substitutions.

I'm glad CIF Southern Section (southern California) doesn't adopt the CR rule.

[UmpTTS43]

Don't have my FED books handy, but I believe this is a legal sub situation. I know of one college rule set that has that type of sub sitch as legal.

[JaxRolo]

I don't think the F2 would be a "pinch runner" in this case since he was a starter in the game and just re-entered. Pinch runners are players who come in "cold" off the bench.

However, my umpire gut still says this move is nefarious at best, and more than likely illegal. I do not have any NFHS books to back me up though. Any NFHS rule junkies wanna take this one on?

On a similar note-can someone explain to me why HS coaches do not bat their "no better than average" hitting catcher in the leadoff spot and just put in the little quick kid everytime he gets on?

I agree Johnson is not a PR. He is simply reentering. It is not a projected substitution.

So Johnson comes back in S1 is done. Then the coach brings in a PR for Johnson. Johnson is done.

Sounds legal but I could be wrong.

[mstaylor]

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

[ukce1861]

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

Why can the original F2 - upon reentry - be CRed for? Once he leaves for a sub, there is no catcher in the lineup. Saying PH1 is the catcher is a projected substitution. So if F2 reenters for PH1, how is he now "the Catcher"? I don't guess I understand how PH1 being catcher would be a projected substitution, but F2 reentering, and being CRed for, would not...

Seems to me once he leaves the game, he "loses" his defensive position until he actually plays that position on defense.

[JaxRolo]

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

Why can the original F2 - upon reentry - be CRed for? Once he leaves for a sub, there is no catcher in the lineup. Saying PH1 is the catcher is a projected substitution. So if F2 reenters for PH1, how is he now "the Catcher"? I don't guess I understand how PH1 being catcher would be a projected substitution, but F2 reentering, and being CRed for, would not...

Seems to me once he leaves the game, he "loses" his defensive position until he actually plays that position on defense.

Because if he re-enters he is the catcher.

[carolinablue]

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

Why can the original F2 - upon reentry - be CRed for? Once he leaves for a sub, there is no catcher in the lineup. Saying PH1 is the catcher is a projected substitution. So if F2 reenters for PH1, how is he now "the Catcher"? I don't guess I understand how PH1 being catcher would be a projected substitution, but F2 reentering, and being CRed for, would not...

Seems to me once he leaves the game, he "loses" his defensive position until he actually plays that position on defense.

That's what I was thinking but apparently wrong.

[TX-UIC]

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

This is the correct ruling...

[mstaylor]

What you have to remember is that any player in a defensive position is in that position until someone else actually comes on the field and plays that position. So, if you have a sub come in for the starter he is batting for him but has no ability to claim he is the new catcher, that would be a future sub. If the starter reenters on the bases then he is simply returning to the lineup in his original spot offensively and defensively. Once they return to defense, he may move to another position.

[Richvee]

My argument is once the catcher is pinch hit for, he's lost his status as the catcher. He's out of the game. At the point when the pinch hitter is at bat, there is no catcher in the team's line up. Now, when he re-enters to pinch run, he's nothing more than a pinch runner until he takes a position in the field next inning. Calling him the catcher at that point would be projecting.

[mstaylor]

i understand your logic but even though he has left the game he is still the catcher of record until somebody comes on the field and catches.

[catsbackr]

I'm pretty sure once the starting catcher is pinch-hit for or substituted for, after the pinch hitter has reached 1st and the catcher re-enters, he cannot be courtesy ran for. The starting catcher is only using his re-entry privileges as a starter and a defensive position cannot be projected.

[TX-UIC]

I'm pretty sure once the starting catcher is pinch-hit for or substituted for, after the pinch hitter has reached 1st and the catcher re-enters, he cannot be courtesy ran for. The starting catcher is only using his re-entry privileges as a starter and a defensive position cannot be projected.

This was my logic... but by the TASO State Rules interpreter.. Crew Chief above has the correct ruling. Below

Crew Chief

Posted 05 December 2011 - 05:29 PM

Double Johnsons confuses the issue. F2 is due up to bat, PH1 comes in to bat. He singles, at this point many coaches will ask for a CR on the premise that the sub is going to catch. This is what the BRD is referencing and is illegal, the original F2 is still in that position until somebody actually catches. Now if he reenters the original F2 then certainly he cane be CRed for. If the original F2 did not have reentry rights there can be no CR for anybody, there is no catcher at the time.

[Replacematt]

The starting catcher is only using his re-entry privileges as a starter and a defensive position cannot be projected.

By that logic, you will never know who your catcher is the next half-inning, and the courtesy runner rule is useless for its intent.

[catsbackr]

The starting catcher is only using his re-entry privileges as a starter and a defensive position cannot be projected.

By that logic, you will never know who your catcher is the next half-inning, and the courtesy runner rule is useless for its intent.

Apples and oranges.

The courtesy runner is a speed up rule.

In the OP, the catcher was substituted for, his sub reached base and the catcher re-entered under the re-entry for starters rule.

To address your point, the catcher is not substituted for every time at bat and is still the catcher of record. The courtesy runner is not a substitute. The courtesy runner rule is absolutely USEFUL for it's intent to allow the catcher time to equip himself and thus speed up the game by not having to wait for him.

[Replacematt]

Apples and oranges.

The courtesy runner is a speed up rule.

In the OP, the catcher was substituted for, his sub reached base and the catcher re-entered under the re-entry for starters rule.

To address your point, the catcher is not substituted for every time at bat and is still the catcher of record. The courtesy runner is not a substitute. The courtesy runner rule is absolutely USEFUL for it's intent to allow the catcher time to equip himself and thus speed up the game by not having to wait for him.

You really can't address a point you missed.

If one were to make the claim that a defensive position cannot be projected (as you did,) then the intent of the rule does not match its wording. A CR can only exist for whoever LAST played that position, not who will NEXT play the position. Hypothetically, a team can use CRs every inning without ever using one for who is actually going to be in that position the next half. Hence, to make the claim that a defensive position cannot be projected is not only incorrect, but irrelevant.

[LMSANS]

The intent of the rule is to get F2 (F1 alsofor some reason) in the dugout, putting his equipment on before the inning ends. F1 can start his warmups as soon as F1 & F2 get on the field.

The rule says nothing about projected players. It is through interpretation, that this issue is addressed.

Read the book and come back to play again some time.

[catsbackr]

Apples and oranges.

The courtesy runner is a speed up rule.

In the OP, the catcher was substituted for, his sub reached base and the catcher re-entered under the re-entry for starters rule.

To address your point, the catcher is not substituted for every time at bat and is still the catcher of record. The courtesy runner is not a substitute. The courtesy runner rule is absolutely USEFUL for it's intent to allow the catcher time to equip himself and thus speed up the game by not having to wait for him.

You really can't address a point you missed.

If one were to make the claim that a defensive position cannot be projected (as you did,) then the intent of the rule does not match its wording. A CR can only exist for whoever LAST played that position, not who will NEXT play the position. Hypothetically, a team can use CRs every inning without ever using one for who is actually going to be in that position the next half. Hence, to make the claim that a defensive position cannot be projected is not only incorrect, but irrelevant.

I guess reading and comprehension a truly fundamental.

THIS is the point you made:

By that logic, you will never know who your catcher is the next half-inning, and the courtesy runner rule is useless for its intent.

This is my ANSWER to your point:

In the OP, the catcher was substituted for, his sub reached base and the catcher re-entered under the re-entry for starters rule.


To address your point, the catcher is not substituted for every time at bat and is still the catcher of record. The courtesy runner is not a substitute. The courtesy runner rule is absolutely USEFUL for it's intent to allow the catcher time to equip himself and thus speed up the game by not having to wait for him.

You said:

Hypothetically, a team can use CRs every inning without ever using one for who is actually going to be in that position the next half. Hence, to make the claim that a defensive position cannot be projected is not only incorrect, but irrelevant.

The CR is not for the PLAYER, it is for the POSITION. And, after a substitution is made, for a pitcher or a catcher and that pitcher or catcher is re-entered, you cannot project which position he will play. That is absolutely correct and relevant.

The CR's might be made for various players during the game, but it is always for the position. Players still must establish their positions. GET IT?

[Replacematt]

The intent of the rule is to get F2 (F1 alsofor some reason) in the dugout, putting his equipment on before the inning ends. F1 can start his warmups as soon as F1 & F2 get on the field.

The rule says nothing about projected players. It is through interpretation, that this issue is addressed.

Read the book and come back to play again some time.

Pretty sure I know the rule.

Name one aspect of the rule that guarantees that the "replaced" player will be F1 or F2 the next half-inning, outside of the top of the 1st.

Therefore, to make the claim, as some people have, that the re-entered player has no defensive position is incorrect and irrelevant.

You may want to pay attention to what people are actually saying.

[Replacematt]

I guess reading and comprehension a truly fundamental.

So, try it sometime. Start with the rulebook.

The CR is not for the PLAYER, it is for the POSITION.

Incorrect. It is both. By rule, a CR can only be done for the PLAYER to last play one of two POSITIONS.

And, after a substitution is made, for a pitcher or a catcher and that pitcher or catcher is re-entered, you cannot project which position he will play. That is absolutely correct and relevant.

Rule cite? Hint: There is none, since you are incorrect.

The CR's might be made for various players during the game, but it is always for the position. Players still must establish their positions. GET IT?

No, because you are wrong. Do you GET IT? It's black-and-white. A CR can be used for whoever LAST played the position. There are no exceptions listed.