HBP -- Move??

[Thunderheads]

Ok, easy one I know, ....but ....

Last night before our game (u16 travel) my partner and I (work together all the time) are chatting right before the team takes the field and my partner is talking about the HT assistant coach and that he can be "prickly" at times. I ask him, ..."like, how" ...well, he gave me an example of when he was a head coach and gave him a hard time about a hit by pitch and the fact that the batter has to make an attempt to avoid the pitch ...etc, etc... and we started talking about this sitch in general.

What do you know ... that inning (I'm PU) ....we have a HBP. Pitch is a good foot plus inside, batter turns/rotates towards me (right handed)... pitch hits him in the back of his upper left arm ... "time ...." sent him to first.

Now, ..not that I care what is said from fans, but I hear "he's got to avoid the pitch blue" ... ....

I recalled my conversation w/ my partner before the inning .... and just wanted to confirm, there isn't any wording in OBR or FED that says the batter 'must attempt to avoid' a pitch? I know, stupid question...but....

OK, ON EDIT .... 6.08 ( ..B..) ...forget it....I found it.............

He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless

(1) The ballis in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or

(2) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball;

If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike,whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.

APPROVED RULING: When the batter is touched by a pitched ball which does not entitle him to first base, the ball is dead and no runner may advance

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this is a good discussion anyhow ....

[txump81]

I don't have any rule basis.

In the batter's box=HBP(unless it's intentional contact by batter)

Between the chalk=batter must make an attempt

[Thunderheads]

I don't have any rule basis.

In the batter's box=HBP(unless it's intentional contact by batter)

Between the chalk=batter must make an attempt

Justin, see my adjusted post above with the ruling .......doesn't sound that way.... sounds to me like there needs to be 'some' type of attempt...

[Mr Umpire]

In OBR, there has to be an attempt. He is not suppose to just stand there. Though, the slightest attempt or movement usually gets the doubt.

In NCAA, he can just stand there.

I don't know the ruling for FED on this one.

[Thunderheads]

In OBR, there has to be an attempt. He is not suppose to just stand there. Though, the slightest attempt or movement usually gets the doubt.

In NCAA, he can just stand there.

I don't know the ruling for FED on this one.

Thanks, ....any FED guys want to chime in, I'd appreciate it ....

[UmpJM]

Jeff,

The FED Rule Book uses the language:

"A batter hall not ....permit a pitched ball to touch him."

7-3-4, and similar language in 8-1-1d1.

FED Case Play 7.3.4D describes a sitch in which the batter is "fooled by the pitch", does not move, and is awarded 1B.

JM

[Thunderheads]

Jeff,

The FED Rule Book uses the language:

"A batter hall not ....permit a pitched ball to touch him."

7-3-4, and similar language in 8-1-1d1.

FED Case Play 7.3.4D describes a sitch in which the batter is "fooled by the pitch", does not move, and is awarded 1B.

JM

Thank you sir...so, clear as mud!? Seriously....so, it's about the same using the quote "shall not permit a pitched ball to touch him" ...different words, similar concept. However, in the case play cited it sounds as if there are certain circumstances in which there is an exception?

[Fittske24]

In NCAA, he can just stand there.

Not true...

NCAA Rule: 8-2-d(2)

If the batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball and the pitch is out of the strike zone, the pitch shall be called a ball. The ball is dead, no runners may advance and the batter is not awarded first base unless the pitch is ball four.

[UmpJM]

Fittske,

True. Well, at least if the pitch is in the batter's box.

A.R.—If the batter freezes and is hit by a pitch that is clearly inside the vertical lines of

the batter’s box, the ball is dead and the batter is awarded first base.

Jeff,

Thank you sir...so, clear as mud!? Seriously....so, it's about the same using the quote "shall not permit a pitched ball to touch him" ...different words, similar concept. However, in the case play cited it sounds as if there are certain circumstances in which there is an exception?

Pretty much, yes.

Here's how I think of it and try to apply it in games.

If the batter tries to get hit, he's not getting 1B.

If the batter has ample opportunity to not get hit and just stands there, he's probably not getting 1B.

The closer the pitch is to the batter's box, the less likely it is that I am going to judge the batter had ample opportunity to not get hit.

JM

[mjr_2013]

The problem I have had is when you get the younger kids.... 10u and below... I've called this before on them, and have subsequently had managers argue that "he (the batter) didn't know what he was doing... The ball had always come back to the zone, and he has never been hit before..."

Do I still need to call it? It is a rule, but the meaning for the rule disappears with the kids who don't know what they are doing... The meaning is obviously so that players don't stand there and just take it to get on base. These kids aren't doing that, but they aren't moving either.

Plus I hate looking like evil guy who is telling the crying 7 year old that he doesn't even get 1st base for his pain... :FIRE:

[mstaylor]

Sometimes, especially in younger kids, they will be frozen by the pitch. If this happens let them go. I am in the minority but I am less likely to send them on no movement than most. The impportant thing to remember the OBR and the FED rule is basically the same on this. The NCAA rule is if the pitch is in the confines of the box then they do ot have to move. However, even in the box they can't go after the pitch or go after it outside the box.

[noumpere]

Thank you sir...so, clear as mud!? Seriously....so, it's about the same using the quote "shall not permit a pitched ball to touch him" ...different words, similar concept. However, in the case play cited it sounds as if there are certain circumstances in which there is an exception?

Permitting a ball to hit you means standing there and taking it even if you had an opportunity to move. It doesnt mean not making an attempt to move if you didnt have a chance to attempt to move. If the pitch is one that would of hit the batter no matter what he did then he goes to first even if he doesnt move. But if he could of got out of the way then he has to try to.

And I would generally ignore the coaches on this. If there batter is hit they want first no matter what and on the exact same play they will want the other batter to stay there.

[mjr_2013]

This is the first time this has happened to me..... I've talked about the situation on here, went to my next game, and it happened...

14u LL Juniors... Count is 1-2 on the batter. Pitch comes in, batter doesn't move, hits him in the ribs... I immediately call "Dead ball, you gotta move" to the batter, who had started on his way to first... He laughed and headed back smiling, because he knew... Coach told him while smiling, "See! I told ya, you gotta make it look like your moving!"

[persong]

I let the level of play determine what happens mostly. If it is a 10/11 year old they are gonna get the base unless it was 5 MPH and the don't even flinch. 14/15 then I need to have some kind of movement. They can turn "front shoulder towards the plate" like they are taught and I will give it to them. But if they don't move at all they are just gonna be sore. Of course if a kid is throwing a great breaking ball that moves they get the benefit of the doubt. I am sure not gonna reward a pitcher for being WILD.. had a tournament game over the weekend. Pitcher hit the first 2 batters, gave up a walk then hit the 4th batter. Needless to say the coach pulled him.

[grayhawk]

My Fed instructors broke it down this way:

If the ball hits the batter, then he gets first (as long as it's not a strike)

If the batter hits the ball with his body, then he stays put.

Essentially, he pretty much has to lean into it in some way to not be awarded first. They used the case play mentioned above (getting fooled) as ample reason to award first when he doesn't move.

[mstaylor]

Your Fed instructors are not teaching it correctly. They are saying that by doing nothing, if the ball isn't in the zone, they go to first. That is not what the rule says. The rule says they can't allow the ball to hit them. What they are teaching is contrary to the written rule. I agree that there are times that a pitch will freeze him, but generally you can tell the difference.

[catsbackr]

This is the first time this has happened to me..... I've talked about the situation on here, went to my next game, and it happened...

14u LL Juniors... Count is 1-2 on the batter. Pitch comes in, batter doesn't move, hits him in the ribs... I immediately call "Dead ball, you gotta move" to the batter, who had started on his way to first... He laughed and headed back smiling, because he knew... Coach told him while smiling, "See! I told ya, you gotta make it look like your moving!"

Disagree.

The ball hit the batter in the ribs? So, the pitcher threw the ball is in the middle of the batter's box and hit the batter and the batter stays put?

Not me. Unless the batter did something to cause himself to be hit, he' going to first.

You don't take one in the ribs for the team.

[Rich Ives]

The NCAA has it right. The ball doesn't belong in the batter's box. Pitch hits you in the box you go to first no matter what.

THE PITCHER SCREWED UP!

Why are so many looking for reasons to keep the batter at bat?

DAMN!

[mstaylor]

Because the rules say try to avoid. Let me ask it this way. The batter is crowding the plate but not in the zone. The pitcher throws inside but misses slightly but the batter never flinches. He hasn't tried to get hit but he did nothing to avoid it either. Is he going to first or staying? I'm not saying I never send them to first, I just don't call the NCAA rule in a Fed or OBR game. What was the Fed POI a couple of years ago, call the Fed rulebook in a Fed game.

[Rich Ives]

Because the rules say try to avoid. Let me ask it this way. The batter is crowding the plate but not in the zone. The pitcher throws inside but misses slightly but the batter never flinches. He hasn't tried to get hit but he did nothing to avoid it either. Is he going to first or staying? I'm not saying I never send them to first, I just don't call the NCAA rule in a Fed or OBR game. What was the Fed POI a couple of years ago, call the Fed rulebook in a Fed game.

Watch some video of MLB. They use OBR which 92.73% of the games played in the US are played under. That's how to call it.

Just about any perceptable movement is judged "good enough" unless the batter blatantly stuck his arm into the pitch. Why do yoy think "stay here" is such a rare rare call?

[Thunderheads]

Because the rules say try to avoid. Let me ask it this way. The batter is crowding the plate but not in the zone. The pitcher throws inside but misses slightly but the batter never flinches. He hasn't tried to get hit but he did nothing to avoid it either. Is he going to first or staying? I'm not saying I never send them to first, I just don't call the NCAA rule in a Fed or OBR game. What was the Fed POI a couple of years ago, call the Fed rulebook in a Fed game.

Watch some video of MLB. They use OBR which 92.73% of the games played in the US are played under. That's how to call it.

Just about any perceptable movement is judged "good enough" unless the batter blatantly stuck his arm into the pitch. Why do yoy think "stay here" is such a rare rare call?

or unless it's Bob Davidson ....

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16111651

[grayhawk]

Because the rules say try to avoid. Let me ask it this way. The batter is crowding the plate but not in the zone. The pitcher throws inside but misses slightly but the batter never flinches. He hasn't tried to get hit but he did nothing to avoid it either. Is he going to first or staying? I'm not saying I never send them to first, I just don't call the NCAA rule in a Fed or OBR game. What was the Fed POI a couple of years ago, call the Fed rulebook in a Fed game.

Watch some video of MLB. They use OBR which 92.73% of the games played in the US are played under. That's how to call it.

Just about any perceptable movement is judged "good enough" unless the batter blatantly stuck his arm into the pitch. Why do yoy think "stay here" is such a rare rare call?

or unless it's Bob Davidson ....

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=16111651

I don't agree with Bob there. Of course, I also don't wear a necklace when I umpire...

[mstaylor]

That is a nonresponsive post Rich.

[Rich Ives]

That is a nonresponsive post Rich.

Non-responsive to what? On when to call "stay here"? I don't think so.

[mstaylor]

Because the rules say try to avoid. Let me ask it this way. The batter is crowding the plate but not in the zone. The pitcher throws inside but misses slightly but the batter never flinches. He hasn't tried to get hit but he did nothing to avoid it either. Is he going to first or staying? I'm not saying I never send them to first, I just don't call the NCAA rule in a Fed or OBR game. What was the Fed POI a couple of years ago, call the Fed rulebook in a Fed game.

Watch some video of MLB. They use OBR which 92.73% of the games played in the US are played under. That's how to call it.

Just about any perceptable movement is judged "good enough" unless the batter blatantly stuck his arm into the pitch. Why do yoy think "stay here" is such a rare rare call?

Is the batter going to first in my question. "Stay here" is a rare call because generally either they move some or the umpire choices to ignore the rule and award first anyway. In the cases where they don't move at all I tend to not send them unless I think they got frozen by the pitch. I am firmly in the minority here on this view. If they changed Fed and/or OBR to the NCAA rule then I send him no problem.