Misleading the runner

[jnazz]

While getting dressed for our game last night, my partner told me of a situation that happened to him last week. American Legion game. Runner on first. R1 steals on pitch. Wild pitch gets past catcher. As the runner approaches second, the SS says "Foul Ball; Foul Ball" loud enough for the runner and the base umpire to hear. The runner retreats to first and is almost thrown out, but the ball gets past the 1st baseman and the runner ends up on second anyway. My partner let it slide but was still Pissed off yesterday (at the SS actions). He didn't know what to do. I would've dumped him. I spoke to our most experienced umpire in the area, and he said that obstrucion should be called (Obvious intent to interfere with the runner). What do you guys think??

[BrianC14]

While getting dressed for our game last night, my partner told me of a situation that happened to him last week. American Legion game. Runner on first. R1 steals on pitch. Wild pitch gets past catcher. As the runner approaches second, the SS says "Foul Ball; Foul Ball" loud enough for the runner and the base umpire to hear. The runner retreats to first and is almost thrown out, but the ball gets past the 1st baseman and the runner ends up on second anyway. My partner let it slide but was still Pissed off yesterday (at the SS actions). He didn't know what to do. I would've dumped him. I spoke to our most experienced umpire in the area, and he said that obstrucion should be called (Obvious intent to interfere with the runner). What do you guys think??

The base umpire missed a chance to at least had an obstruction call, and also an ejection for F6's actions (since he heard it).

[gixxershane]

Yup, I woulda tossed F6 and put the runner at 3rd, but that is just me :D

[Umpire in Chief]

I had this exact situation a few years ago in a LL Sr's game I was the PU. R1 steals standing up as the ball was just returned to the pitcher. As PU I heard the SS say something to the runner, but I couldn't hear what. The runner starts a slow trot back to first the pitcher throws to the second baseman who tags the runner and my partner calls him out. Amazingly there was very little protest. The runner just looked jaw dropped and said he told me it was a foul ball. I instantly believed him, but nobody raised a fuss and the call stood.

After the game my partner told me that he clearly heard the SS tell him it was a foul. I told him I thought that's what I heard and told him that's obstruction. Since he's standing on 2nd at the time of obstruction he should have been awarded 3rd. I was irritated with my partner for letting that happen.

On top of that the game ended with a phantom balk call by my partner. The pitcher went to his mouth and then went directly to the ball w/o wiping. My partner called the balk w/ a runner on third in the bottom of the 7th with 2 outs in a tied game. There was a fuss this time but as bad as I wanted to say/do something nobody came to me.

[bassfam11]

I had this exact situation a few years ago in a LL Sr's game I was the PU. R1 steals standing up as the ball was just returned to the pitcher. As PU I heard the SS say something to the runner, but I couldn't hear what. The runner starts a slow trot back to first the pitcher throws to the second baseman who tags the runner and my partner calls him out. Amazingly there was very little protest. The runner just looked jaw dropped and said he told me it was a foul ball. I instantly believed him, but nobody raised a fuss and the call stood.

After the game my partner told me that he clearly heard the SS tell him it was a foul. I told him I thought that's what I heard and told him that's obstruction. Since he's standing on 2nd at the time of obstruction he should have been awarded 3rd. I was irritated with my partner for letting that happen.

On top of that the game ended with a phantom balk call by my partner. The pitcher went to his mouth and then went directly to the ball w/o wiping. My partner called the balk w/ a runner on third in the bottom of the 7th with 2 outs in a tied game. There was a fuss this time but as bad as I wanted to say/do something nobody came to me.

If on the rubber, how is this a phantom balk? I assume he was in fact at least in the mound area (a ball, not a balk)?

Edited July 17, 2009 by bassfam11

[Umpire in Chief]

If on the rubber, how is this a phantom balk? I assume he was in fact at least in the mound area (a ball, not a balk)?

True he was just on the mound and hadn't engaged yet.

[noumpere]

While getting dressed for our game last night, my partner told me of a situation that happened to him last week. American Legion game. Runner on first. R1 steals on pitch. Wild pitch gets past catcher. As the runner approaches second, the SS says "Foul Ball; Foul Ball" loud enough for the runner and the base umpire to hear. The runner retreats to first and is almost thrown out, but the ball gets past the 1st baseman and the runner ends up on second anyway. My partner let it slide but was still Pissed off yesterday (at the SS actions). He didn't know what to do. I would've dumped him. I spoke to our most experienced umpire in the area, and he said that obstrucion should be called (Obvious intent to interfere with the runner). What do you guys think??

If your Legion uses OBR, then it's nothing (by rule). If your Legion uses FED, then it's obstruction.

Under OBR, in games above HS, I'd let it go -- the players and the coaches have a responsibility to know the game situation. In under HS (and I don't do any), I guess I'd try to correct it -- perhaps by calling "time" when I heard / recognized what F6 said.

[jnazz]

Uses OBR not FED. Legion U19. So you say not obstruction and no ejection? I don't think I could just let that stand.

[Jboval]

In LL there is no Balk for going to the mouth. It is a ball, a 'don't do that', with a possibility of ejection for repeated offense.

[moblue]

If your Legion uses OBR, then it's nothing (by rule). If your Legion uses FED, then it's obstruction.

Under OBR, in games above HS, I'd let it go -- the players and the coaches have a responsibility to know the game situation. In under HS (and I don't do any), I guess I'd try to correct it -- perhaps by calling "time" when I heard / recognized what F6 said.

It may be nothing by rule under OBR, but I would probably put the runner back and have a strong warning for F6. I'm not sure I would penalize it as obstruction, but F6 would certainly be guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct.

[LLWS#32]

If the rule code that your game is being played under doesn't address the comment made by the SS then you as an umpire simply don't have the ability to place the runner at second or third. Furthermore, if the defense is able to get an out then it stands. You may have an EJ. We as umpires must remember that the rule book does not give us the ability (not even 9.01C) to make up rules. You are going to get yourself into an protestable situation by making up rules.

[jnazz]

I hear what you're saying, but I see the comment as making a mockery of the game. I can live with no obstruction, but if I'm in that situation -- bye bye shortstop.

[MCLEOD36]

That example is a perfect one to put in your arsenal, cause in a heated game, you need to be clear on it. It would be obstruction (ie defence), put the runner on 2nd if not at 2nd or 3rd, warn or eject the SS.....

[noumpere]

I hear what you're saying, but I see the comment as making a mockery of the game. I can live with no obstruction, but if I'm in that situation -- bye bye shortstop.

Oh please.

The runners should be listening to the coaches (and umpires) and no one else. If they do, it's their own fault -- and there's no better way to learn than to be picked off (or almost so).

It's not much different from the offense's "snake in the outfield" play.

If you can use some preventive umpiring, then do so, but if the kid walks off then just call the game.

[alex7]

Seems odd that FED would have a verbal interference rule to prevent the O from yelling at the D with the intent to confuse, but that the D would go un-penalized for doing the same thing.

I'll have to look it up in the FED book later, but I hope McLeod is right on this.

[MCLEOD36]

Alex,

It is verbal obstruction in FED and it is clear. 2.22.1 is the case....and they have an example or two in the book....

[ShinySideUp]

Uses OBR not FED. Legion U19. So you say not obstruction and no ejection? I don't think I could just let that stand.

At U19 Legion level, I might warn F6, but I'd certainly be on the lookout for retaliation the next time he got to the plate. I'd also be watching for R1 to take direct action, should he have the chance to slide into 2B.

Seriously ... U19 Legion and the runner fell for that? Was this the same guy that didn't peg the runner outside the lane in an earlier discussion?

[Don in Washington]

In LL there is no Balk for going to the mouth. It is a ball, a 'don't do that', with a possibility of ejection for repeated offense.

LL rule 8.02(a)(1) covers this. Call a ball & move on.

Don in Washington

[tommy]

I am the u-i-c in for our local babe ruth league 13-15 we have 8 teams and all these kids grew up together ( small town ) I must have had this happen 5 times this year. after calling obstruction the first time it happen I was tolf by the league president to let it go, simply put the runner back on second and resume play. His thoughts were its a kids game and let the boys have fun. I guess I can both agree and disagree with this train of thought but it was kind of fun to watch.

[okump96]

i had that happen last spring in a juco game. i'm pu, r1 stealing,pitch in the dirt, batter swings, ball gets buy f2 and goes to backstop, f4 tells r1 that was a foul ball, r1 goes back to 1st, f2 looked at him like he was an idiot. overheard the oc tell his f1 and f2 on their way out the next time that kid (f4)came up to stick it in his ribs. he even told that kid it was gonna happen, i had a brief conversation with coach...

me: "mark, i DID NOT hear you say what i think you did, did i?"

oc: "yes you did. and i know what you have to do about. that sh!t is bush league!"

me: "but your runner fell for it."

oc "he's not the sharpest tool in the shed."

when f4 came up i told him to be ready for it and to take it and go, i'll deal with everything else. he said ok, but the game had changed and he would've been the go ahead run so they couldn't do it.

[carolinablue]

I'm not familiar with juco league. What age ? Also, since the coach admitted what he had said and you also heard him, isn't that grounds enough for a trip to the parking lot ? Not critisizing, just looking for opinions.

[mstaylor]

JUCO is Jr college. At that age you can take care of business but you have to know tossing will likely result. Saying so the umpire can hear it is stupid. A college coach has to be smarter than that. His base runner has to be smarter than that, as well as the first base coach. No way should a coach making his living coaching should allow a runner be fooled by that. As soon as he steps off, the coach should be on him.

[carolinablue]

Understood. What about at HS or younger. Toss him ?

[mstaylor]

I don't know I would toss him but I would let him know the plunking better not happen. I would also make it known that it would be the last time I hear something like that. A buddy of mine tossed a manager when he pulled the same stunt in a JrLL game.

[nolanadair]

i would have called obstruction on the shortstop. I would have warned the shortstop that if he did it again he would be ejected. In order to determine if it is ejection worthy I think I would have to be there.

What would you do in this situation?

Runner on third. Two outs, 3-2 count. I am the third baseman (i play high school baseball for Mission Viejo high School) and say "3-2, 2 outs, you're going". I was trying to get the runner to go home, so that if it was ball four, then we would tag the runner out at home or back at third. Anyways, I originally got called for obstruction, but my coach came out and had a discussion with the home plate umpire, who in turn asked the base umpire. After the umpire conference, the call was changed from obstruction to an out.

We won the game by 1 run.