Coach challenges ''ME", about the rules?

[littleleagueump]

I was umping a 13-14 Little League game in Senoia about two weeks ago. This is funny!

The pitcher pitched the ball, the pitch hit the gound once before it got to the batter. It was headed for the batters lgs/feet. The batter tried everything he could to dance away from the pitch but was hit in the leg by the ball. "TIME" I said. "Batter, go to first." The opposing coach calls time to discuss something with me that I was not sure of as yet. "Ok, coach, what do you need?" He informed me that I can not do that, "do what" I asked. He went on to say, "you can not put the batter on first base because the ball hit the dirt first." I started "Coach, the batter was hit by a pitched ball, regardless if it hits the ground one time or multiple times, it is still a pitched ball and if it hits the batter and in my judgement, the batter made an attempt to avoid being hit by the pitch, then he is awarded first base."

The coach went on to say "if the ball hits the dirt first, the ball is dead and the batter can not go to first." Once again, I explained it to him and he still insisted that the batter return to the plate, that I was wrong. The coach was calm the entire time as well, so there was no sign of conflict. I finally called to the batter now standing on first base, "hey batter, you need to return to the plate to bat again. This coach says you can not go to first base because of the ball hitting the ground first." He started to come back but then I quickly sent him back after he took about three steps of the bag.

The coach went on to say, "you don't have to get upset about it, all you had to do was explain it to me. My partner is standing about ten feet away from me and as soon as he heard that the coach said, he put his hads in the air as if to say, "DUH, what part of the explaination did you not understand?"

The catcher said I was wrong too and he is a friend of mine. He told me that a batted ball hitting the fence foul is no different. "WHAT!?":confused: I don't know where that came from. Afeter the game was over, the coach came to me and told me good game and that I got that call right. I BIT MY TOUNGE!

I just smiled and told him thanks.

In conclusion, after 23 years of calling baseball, working as a UIC for a league for 11 years, adding leagues to my list where I am now the UIC of now at three parks, looking to get another park away from an association that is all about the money, not the kids and/or the rules, working as a VOLUNTEER umpire and running the entire district, I think that I may know the rules by know. I don't need a rule book much any more. I think that I bragged too much here.:D

[Umpire in Chief]

Great post. I often wonder if coaches learn the same way we do. Being that once we kick a rule we never kick that same rule twice.

[Old Nr 24]

Great post. I often wonder if coaches learn the same way we do. Being that once we kick a rule we never kick that same rule twice.

Actually, I wonder if some coaches ever learn anything! Most lower level coaches don't know the rules much at all and make no effort to learn them. As the level of competition goes up, some are good, but still most I've found don't know more than just the "surface" rules.

Amusing story about that point. Working the bases in a JV game and there was a swinging bunt to the first base side of the mound. F3 moves toward it, then realizes the pitcher has it and begins to retreat to the bag for the throw. But he's backing up, and as he catches the ball he trips and falls directly on his butt on the bag well ahead of the runner, whom I instantly call out. His coach comes out to argue the call, but before he can do it I hit him with "What's the difference between a foot and an ass?" He looks at me like I have two heads and again I asked, "What's the difference between a foot and an ass?" He asks me what the hell I'm talking about, and I explained that F3 had control of the ball and was touching the bag, albeit with his butt, before the runner reached the bag, and there is no difference between a foot and an ass! He laughed aloud and walked to the dugout.

[DonInKansas]

"What's the difference between a foot and an ass?"

The foot is what a coach puts in his mouth. The ass is where he puts his head.

One gives and one receives, you might say.:smachhead:

[widac]

I had a Varsity coach try this same routine w/ me last year, I couldn't believe it.

I finally called to the batter now standing on first base, "hey batter, you need to return to the plate to bat again. This coach says you can not go to first base because of the ball hitting the ground first." He started to come back but then I quickly sent him back after he took about three steps of the bag.

I don't understand why you would do/ say the above though.

[Mr Umpire]

I don't understand why you would do/ say the above though.

I agree with this. You made the coach look stupid publicly. We do not want them to do it to us. So, why do it to them? I know so many times we want to say something but shouldn't. This was one of those times.

[Stan W.]

The coach was calm the entire time as well, so there was no sign of conflict. I finally called to the batter now standing on first base, "hey batter, you need to return to the plate to bat again. This coach says you can not go to first base because of the ball hitting the ground first." He started to come back but then I quickly sent him back after he took about three steps of the bag.

The coach went on to say, "you don't have to get upset about it, all you had to do was explain it to me. My partner is standing about ten feet away from me and as soon as he heard that the coach said, he put his hads in the air as if to say, "DUH, what part of the explaination did you not understand?"

The catcher said I was wrong too and he is a friend of mine. He told me that a batted ball hitting the fence foul is no different. "WHAT!?":confused: I don't know where that came from. Afeter the game was over, the coach came to me and told me good game and that I got that call right. I BIT MY TOUNGE!

I just smiled and told him thanks.

In conclusion, after 23 years of calling baseball, working as a UIC for a league for 11 years, adding leagues to my list where I am now the UIC of now at three parks, looking to get another park away from an association that is all about the money, not the kids and/or the rules, working as a VOLUNTEER umpire and running the entire district, I think that I may know the rules by know. I don't need a rule book much any more. I think that I bragged too much here.

Yes, Indeed, I believe you have.....and unfortunately IMHO, you bit your tounge at the wrong time....frankly for an umpire of your advised years and as a UIC the handling of this LL coach was severely unprofessional... Yes, he was wrong with his rule interp, but from your own post, you say he stated his case calmly and without conflict.....you chose to publically show him up...

You should have bit your tounge then and apologized at the end when he showed himself to be a stand up guy by coming over and admitting he was wrong...

yes we all have our time with the clueless coach now and then...but it is how we handle them that makes us professional or not... If this coach had complained to the UIC of my association, this behavior would have earned you a suspension....

[jaybird_1981]

I don't understand the undo confrontation with some umpires. When I had a coach complain about the exact same ruling I simply asked him one question.

When the ball hits the dirt and gets past the catcher is it a dead ball or can the runners advance? And I ask what's the difference with a HBP. They seem to always understand after this explanation.

[mstaylor]

jaybird:

I do the same thing. I ask if the ball goes by the catcher, where do you want your runner? If they say second, I tell them they can't have a sometimes automatic dead ball.

[Tyennie]

Don in Kansas

Lmao&rof

Edited April 28, 2009 by Tyennie

[catoblue]

I don't understand the undo confrontation with some umpires. When I had a coach complain about the exact same ruling I simply asked him one question.

When the ball hits the dirt and gets past the catcher is it a dead ball or can the runners advance? And I ask what's the difference with a HBP. They seem to always understand after this explanation.

That's similar to how I explain it (and I've explained it dozens of times over the years). The best way I've found to quickly get the point across when a coach insists the ball is dead because it hit the ground is this question:

The same pitch hits the dirt in front of the plate and bounces over the plate into the catcher's mitt, batter swings and misses... Dead ball or Strike?

It's fun to watch the light bulb go on at that point.

[jnazz]

the way i've put it to coaches in the past is......... if your rational is correct, then a pitcher could intentionally throw at a batter as long as he one hops it at him. Like the last post said..... that's when the light bulb comes on.

[gixxershane]

I have only had this situation once so far.

The coach didn't try to say the ball was dead, just that its not a HBP.

So the way I explained it is, that in the rule book it says whan a batter is hit by a PITCH he gets first (obvisly has to make an attempt to avoid being hit) and ther is no "unless it hits the ground first" exception in the book. Untill they put that in writing, I call it this way B)

[IndianaUmp]

jaybird,

Great post! That's exactly what I say to coaches in the same situation. We would never have anybody advance on wild pitches if we had to call the ball dead when it hits the ground. As you say, they usually get the point then.

On the topic of coaches ignorant of the rules, I had a doozy this past weekend in a LL All-Star tourney. A pretty good coach, too, with a very good team--but he didn't know the rules. Twice he challenged me on rules. First time: Runner on third with two outs when batter hits dribbler down first base line. First baseman fields it and tags the batter/runner. Coach wants to know if the run counts because it's a tag play and he thinks the runner crossed the plate before the tag! I say, no, it's still a force play, even though he tagged him since the batter was forced to 1st. He insists I don't know the rule but finally stomps off to dugout. Then in a later game--the championship game--his first baseman fields a grounder to his right and races runner to bag. Runner definitely gets there first, so I call him safe. First baseman runs through the baseline and makes incidental contact with runner. You guessed it! Coach wants me to call the runner out for interference because "he's supposed to avoid contact"!

[Finnblue]

Sometimes I felt that it was a little bit strange that an umpire from Finland had to explain rules to Americans...

MS

[critter]

littleleagueump- Nice to see an actually UIC know the rules. I was a volunteer umpire for ll.

This Umpire did his own kids games behind the plate, he also did not know all the rules. ball in dirt hits batter i tried to explain it to him it did not matter if the ball hit the dirt first. and told him that a foul tip was alive ball and in play.

This what happens when your young they judge you by age not knowing rules.

11-12 years old.

:home:

[SNIPERBBB]

What gets a lot of young officials in any sport is that they know the rules,mostly, but they have the deer-in-headlights look and get ripped to shreds by aggressive coaches. Handling confrontation is a critical aspect of our jobs that really is not taught that well. Especially to the guys that cannot go to clinics and schools to learn the finer points of officiating.

Try to avoid involving the kids like this in a play with a coach, they are probably confused enough as it is.

[Typhoon]

I was doing a university fastball game and had the same sitch. The ball hit the ground, bounced up and hit the batter. "TIME" batter to first base on the HBP. Catcher turned to me and said "it hit the ground the ball is dead". All I said, no today is fastpitch, tomorrow when the slowpitch league is playing it will be a dead ball when the pitch hits the ground. The light went on then and she said Oh yeah sometimes I get confused. Hope she wasn't going to be a doctor

Tony

[Umpire in Chief]

Hope she wasn't going to be a doctor

HA! :wave: