Awarding Bases.....Need a Primer AGAIN

[therefump]

Ok,

Here was the situation today at a HS Varsity game (yours truly doing the bases). R1 on first. Two situations:

1) Pitcher on the rubber. Sets. Throws to first catching the runner cheating but first baseman improperly fields ball allowing it to slowly trickle towards the out of play LINE.

2) Pitcher steps off the rubber. blah blah blah.....(same as above).

I watch runner get to 2nd base. Turn towards ball and watch it go out of play. Note that the runner did get to 2nd ahead of ball trickling out of play.

QUESTIONs...........................

Situation #1: Give runner only 2nd base even though he was on the way. 1 base from the mound rule.

Situation #2: Runner gets 3rd because he had 2nd made plus pitcher was a fielder. Worse he had 2nd made regardless.

Winner gets to hear the actual outcome.:WTF

[mstaylor]

1 =second

2 = third

[blindumpire99]

he gets second base ONLY because the throw was made by the pitcher FROM the rubber and happened to be thrown out of play...The speed of the ball going out of play is irrelevant in this case..

[therefump]

1 =second

2 = third

OK now, thanks. I hate being overruled. Pitcher steps off the rubber and R1 knows he's caught so he starts towards 2nd. Pitcher panics and gives a lousy throw to first.

I point to third and PU overruled me saying that he gets 2nd. We conference and he says it doesn't matter if he had 2nd. He rules and OC goes apesh*t and almost gets tossed by PU. I basically had to keep my mouth shut other than to get the coach to back off.

Ruined an otherwise perfectly played/called game. I hate when that happens.

PS: speed of ball was just to show that I could watch it and still cover the runner as well.

[blindumpire99]

Yes, when the pitcher made a correct disengagement of the rubber by stepping backwards, he becomes an infeilder and the base award would be 2 bases from POB. He would get third...

[mstaylor]

What you need to remember is from the rubber is one base from TOP. If he steps off it's two from TOP. First play by an infielder is two bases from TOP. Second play by an infielder or any throw by an outfielder is two bases from TOT. The exception for an outfielder is one base if he carries it out of play unintentionly.

TOP = Time of pitch

TOT = " " throw

If you can explain this then hopefully you won't get overruled unless your partner is a real PITA.

[therefump]

If you can explain this then hopefully you won't get overruled unless your partner is a real PITA.

Obviously you haven't read my "Dear Partner" article.

I'm not a pushover AND I'm also going to show a unified front on the field even if my partner is "Captain Kangaroo" to the point of obvious rulings. He paid the price for putting the runner back by explaining himself to an upset coach. Then again, the coach may have gotten a migraine arguing with him. We discussed on the way home and I told him I'd come back with rulebook info. However, he admited tonight on a phone call he couldn't remember whether the pitcher was toeing the rubber. I told him AGAIN he stepped off and the point became moot. :WTF

[mstaylor]

I haven't read your article yet but I will. I just meant to say by explaining properly maybe you can convince a partner more times than not. You won't always win but it will give a fighting chance.

I had a play-off a couple of years ago where I made the right call but enforced it improperly. If I had done it right the game would have been over. I realized it just as we were about to restart. I called time but was unable to convince my two partners. It changed who won but I never made the same mistake again.

[noumpere]

We conference and he says it doesn't matter if he had 2nd.

Your partner is right about this. And, some of the other points you made (ball slowly trickles out of play, runner is fooled, etc.) are of no concern in this play.

You're making it way too complicated.

[catoblue]

Slight hi-jacking of this thread, but it follows the same topic...

Now here's a sticky one. As most of you know, I coach LL and Umpire LL. This sitch goes with my coach's hat.

As a guy that started umpiring waaaayyy before I started coaching, I make a point of not telling an ump how to do their job when I'm coaching, but so far this season, I've run into this sitch twice already, and we're only a couple weeks in. Ball thrown to a base (1B or 3B) and goes out of play (dugout, stands, under fence, or just across the "line"). The umpires stop play - dead ball, but don't award bases, or if they do, it's the old schoolyard "one base on an overthrow" deal. Now, I know that there is a 2 base award based on TOP or TOT depending on if it's the first attempted play or a follow-on. Should I bring this up to the umpires when it happens?

This is a really touchy one for me, because, as an umpire, I can't stand it when a rat tries to give me rules instruction - since they're wrong about 90% of the time. I just don't to come across as "that which I dislike": a rat. We play travel-ball, so I don't know many of these umps or opposing coaches, so it's not as simple as going to someone I know and pointing them in the right direction.

Any suggestions on how to approach this without coming across as a rat?

[therefump]

Slight hi-jacking of this thread, but it follows the same topic...

Now here's a sticky one. As most of you know, I coach LL and Umpire LL. This sitch goes with my coach's hat.

As a guy that started umpiring waaaayyy before I started coaching, I make a point of not telling an ump how to do their job when I'm coaching, but so far this season, I've run into this sitch twice already, and we're only a couple weeks in. Ball thrown to a base (1B or 3B) and goes out of play (dugout, stands, under fence, or just across the "line"). The umpires stop play - dead ball, but don't award bases, or if they do, it's the old schoolyard "one base on an overthrow" deal. Now, I know that there is a 2 base award based on TOP or TOT depending on if it's the first attempted play or a follow-on. Should I bring this up to the umpires when it happens?

This is a really touchy one for me, because, as an umpire, I can't stand it when a rat tries to give me rules instruction - since they're wrong about 90% of the time. I just don't to come across as "that which I dislike": a rat. We play travel-ball, so I don't know many of these umps or opposing coaches, so it's not as simple as going to someone I know and pointing them in the right direction.

Any suggestions on how to approach this without coming across as a rat?

Well, lets talk like it's an xyz sitch.....in other words, it doesn't matter what the situation. If I'm coaching then I would politely call TIME and first isolate the umpire from everyone and ask him as nicely as possible why he did what he did. If wrong, I would then say, look, as I understand it the rules are "abc" not "xyz", right? Before he answers, I'd also say can you check with your partner, please?

a) this plants the seed of doubt in his mind:shrug:

B) partner may know correct ruling:shrug:

If none of this works and he even seems forceful :BD:I'd give it up right away other than to say to him that you believe he's wrong. :banghead:As you're well aware, you can't force him to change his mind.

Telling him you're an umpire won't help the sitch. I put a fellow I work with in this situation and when someone tells him they're an umpire he gets very defensive.....almost like they're questioning his authority rather than the rule.:WTF

[catoblue]

I guess there is a second part to this question too... and this is more for me as an umpire: The rule (7.05(g)LL) doesn't mention the "out-of-play line" that a lot of fields have. It talks about stands, fences, benches, protective mesh, and backstop, but doesn't mention "dead-ball area" or out of play line. So the question is this - a ball that is thrown into dead-ball territory (F6 to F3, who misses and the ball goes out of the playing area, but not coming in contact with stands, bench, fence, mesh, etc), do we award 2 bases?

[LMSANS]

I guess there is a second part to this question too... and this is more for me as an umpire: The rule (7.05(g)LL) doesn't mention the "out-of-play line" that a lot of fields have. It talks about stands, fences, benches, protective mesh, and backstop, but doesn't mention "dead-ball area" or out of play line. So the question is this - a ball that is thrown into dead-ball territory (F6 to F3, who misses and the ball goes out of the playing area, but not coming in contact with stands, bench, fence, mesh, etc), do we award 2 bases?

When LL rules are unclear, I defer to OBR. So If LL doesn't mention DBT, OBR does.

[catoblue]

When LL rules are unclear, I defer to OBR. So If LL doesn't mention DBT, OBR does.

I looked, and it's worded just like LL rules. I found references to dead-ball, but not to how DBT is enforced. Is it considered "the stands"?

[jjb]

1. If you're out of town, never let on that you're an umpire. We've all heard that before and nothing good ever comes of it.

2. just because you're an umpire, doesn't mean you can't stand up for your team as a coach. If an umpire mis-applies a rule, it's your responsibility to at least try and get it corrected.

3. you've been approached civilly and professionally by coaches before: take the best one and copy it. Tell him what you believe the rule is, and hope he agrees

4. Sometimes, you've just gotta Protest.

5. DBT is DBT, whether line, fence, or between- the-snack-bar-and-the-truck.

[treedog24]

Doesn't the FED rule book have a very detailed table that covers all of DB stiches?

[Umpire in Chief]

1. If you're out of town, never let on that you're an umpire. We've all heard that before and nothing good ever comes of it.

2. just because you're an umpire, doesn't mean you can't stand up for your team as a coach. If an umpire mis-applies a rule, it's your responsibility to at least try and get it corrected.

3. you've been approached civilly and professionally by coaches before: take the best one and copy it. Tell him what you believe the rule is, and hope he agrees

4. Sometimes, you've just gotta Protest.

5. DBT is DBT, whether line, fence, or between- the-snack-bar-and-the-truck.

Good advice. I'd never let on I'm an umpire either, because once you say that it implies you think you know better/more than the guys working the game. As for myself I get more defensive when a coach just happens to work into a discussion that he's an umpire (99% of the time I think they're lying).

As for DBT, cover it in the pre-game and at the plate conference. We generally say since the fence ends here we'll take it from the end of the fence/dugout straight all the way back to approximately ( find some/any landmark for reference.)

I definately do not want to coach any of my son's teams when he gets old enough to play.

[jjb]

3 rules of life:

1: never coach your kid

2: never try and teach your wife to play golf

3: never bet on a fart over the age of 50

[therefump]

3 rules of life:

1: never coach your kid

2: never try and teach your wife to play golf

3: never bet on a fart over the age of 50

Truer words have never been posted. Took me 2 years to figure out #1. When an assistant and myself swapped kids (coaching wise) we were successful.

#2 I divorced the b######. Never had to teach her.

#3 I'm still trying to figure that one out.:WTF

[catoblue]

1: never coach your kid

Coaching my youngest in his final year of LL - second kid through the system, and wouldn't trade it for the world. As was mentioned, swap with your assistant, so that you provide specific coaching for his kid and he provides specific coaching for yours - that way both kids actually listen to what is being taught.

2: never try and teach your wife to play golf

Never would attempt it. As-is, I golf at least 3 over par.... at each hole.

3: never bet on a fart over the age of 50

I'm only 44, and already the odds are stacked against me making that bet :smachhead:

[HokieUmp]

3 rules of life:

3: never bet on a fart over the age of 50

I don't get this. You have farts more than 50 years old? How old are YOU, then??

And you bet on them? Are they racing??

[jjb]

I have too much free time.