Missed first base mechanics

[crazyaboutcoues]

Here's one we've been chewing over the last few meetings. High school baseball

Batter hits the ball to F6, F6 bobbles the ball which creates a close play at first. The BR passes first base before the ball gets there but does not touch the bag. The ball get there shortly after and the F3 touches the bag. What are the BU mechanics? Does he /she call safe or out because the runner never touched the bag, is it a no call??? Half of the crew says you call safe and wait for a defensive appeal, some say you call out because he never touched the bag. What are your thoughts?

T

[umpkid7]

just my 2 cents, he should be called out. In my opinion the underlying differnces lie in that:

On a "standard" appeal, it is on a runner running not touching a base as he ran on to the next base, in this case, it is a force play and since the fielder touched the base with his foot with the ball in his possession prior to the runner touching the base, he would be out.

Additionally, since the runner will return to the base in a few seconds it creates a situation in which an appeal play would happen with the runner at fault standing on the base that is being appealed to. That at least from a player's POV would be incredibly confusing.

Again, just my 2 cents, and nothing to back it up but logic.

[Mr Umpire]

The mechanics are call safe and wait for a defensive appeal. HP is the only base where you signal nothing, even if the runner touches HP. Only call something if there is a play but that is it. No other indication of anything is to be given.

As for UmpKid's logic, I can understand his logic. But, as soon as he passes 1B, he is considered to have touched it. And, nothing says the runner has to be running to the next base, especially at 1B where he is allowed to overrun the base. The MLBUM and PBUC Manuals both support this(I believe since it is raining now and I do not feel like getting wet today to check them).

Also, regardless if it is a force play(which, technically speaking, this is not a force play), the runner is considered to have touched the base once he goes by it. For reasons of affecting preceding runners, it matters if it is a force play or not. But, it does not matter if it is a force play for determining how the defense appeals. They have to appeal the same way whether it is a force play or not. And, once a player returns to the base, no appeal can be upheld for that base.

And, one other thing, we, as umpires, do not care how confusing it is to the defense. It is up to them to figure it out just like we do when we read rules and proper mechanics and umpire manuals to understand all of this.

[crazyaboutcoues]

Thanks Kid and Mr.U

My first reaction was to call an out, but one of the other officials basically said the same thing as MR. U. I agree now, call safe.

thanks again...

[noumpere]

What are the BU mechanics?

The runner is safe, pending appeal. The umpire should make the same call / mechanics a he or seh would had the runner touched the base (either nothing if it was obvious, or a casual safe signal if it was slightly closer, ...)

[jpaco54]

Thanks Kid and Mr.U

My first reaction was to call an out, but one of the other officials basically said the same thing as MR. U. I agree now, call safe.

thanks again...

The only way the BR could be out is, if F3 TAGGED BR before he touched first base. Correct?

[Umpire in Chief]

He could appeal either by tagging him which (to me) is an obvious appeal request if I've called him safe. He can also tag the base again and verbally appeal during a live ball.

This will give you the dirty end of the stick many times no matter what happens. Use good timing and see what happens. Nothing would look worse than you calling safe and a second later calling him out. Even though it is the correct thing to do. Read the play an extra half second and see it they are going to try to tag or appeal. It will save you some headache. You will still have to come up with a big sell on the call.

[huntbomb72]

The runner is safe once he/she passes first base even without touching the base as long as the runner is over-running the base. Missing the base is only relevant if the runner goes to second base or beyond, is safe, and the defensive teams appeals properly. Then, assuming the umpire sees the runner miss first base, you have an out.

[Mr Umpire]

Missing the base is only relevant if the runner goes to second base or beyond, is safe, and the defensive teams appeals properly.

Not true. The runner does not have to go to 2B or beyond for an appeal to be done for missing 1B. Reason being is the runner has other bases to advance to. He has the option of going to 2B or returning to 1B.

The only base which something like this applies to is HP. Then, the play has to be relaxed b/c there is no other base to advance to. The runner has to return to HP or go on into the dugout. If the runner shows no intentions of touching HP immediately following the play, the defense can just appeal. If he does, then the tag has to be done. For all other bases, the runner just has to miss it and the defense can tag the base or runner for an appeal immediately following the miss of the base.

I had to edit my post for this. :agasp_:

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[Ump29]

This is an appeal play the same as any other base except HP (at least in OBR). Therefore signal safe and wait for appeal by defence.

[willv28]

Ok, so BR reaches first but misses the bag. Say the ball was on the way to put him out and arrives just after that happens. Do I call the out then or wait for a clear appeal?

[huntbomb72]

My point is, if the BR immediately returns to first base after over-run/miss of first base, the defense cannot appeal that he didn't touch First Base. However, if he is award 2B, 3B, or HP because of an overthrow etc or because he rounds and takes another base. The miss at 1B can be appealed.

[Mr Umpire]

Ok, so BR reaches first but misses the bag. Say the ball was on the way to put him out and arrives just after that happens. Do I call the out then or wait for a clear appeal?

Wait for a clear appeal. This would be an "accidental" appeal and is not allowed under OBR. Fed can be a different story and I'll let the Fed experts comment on that.

So, even though the ball arrives late, does not constitute an appeal. The defense has to verbalize it or show they are appealing the miss by their actions. Such as F3 starts after BR but stops and then tags 1B. That is an appeal by action and should be ruled on.

[Mr Umpire]

My point is, if the BR immediately returns to first base after over-run/miss of first base, the defense cannot appeal that he didn't touch First Base. However, if he is award 2B, 3B, or HP because of an overthrow etc or because he rounds and takes another base. The miss at 1B can be appealed.

If the appeal happens before BR returns(even if he is returning immediately) to 1B, it is upheld and the runner is out. This only applies to HP and then, the runner must be tagged if returning immediately following the play.

I'm not sure your point is very clear. An appeal of any base except HP can be made immediately following the runner missing the base. HP appeal has to be made after the runner shows no intentions of touching HP when the play is considered over. Again, the runner does not have to try and advance to be appealed on at the base he missed except HP, where he has to show no intentions of touching HP when play is relaxed.

[therefump]

Ok. This is scary.

What if I don't give a safe / out signal? The first baseman is tipped off and will tag the runner at which time I call "out" and if the first baseman is a dunce then the runner is safe when the runner touches the bag if the defense does not touch him or the bag. There is NO appeal play.

What happens with a R1 first, batter/runner hits to F5, F5 throws to second and before the ball gets there the R1 overslides the bag WITHOUT TOUCHING IT and F4 doesn't touch the base or tag the runner for the force. Question: is R1 safe when he retreats to 2nd base? Yes. What's the difference?

Since when are there appeals for a play at first when the runner is on first? In my experience I've never seen an "appeal at first" when the runner is on first.:clap:

Edited May 6, 2009 by therefump

[mstaylor]

You guys have run this around the horn enough, I'm not sure exactly what has been said. Mr Umpire is correct that you show safe. BR is coming down the line and for whatever reason steps over first. If he is completely past first, meaning his trail foot, before the ball arrives then the runner is called safe. If any part of him is over the bag when the ball arrives he is out. As far as the appeal, the F3 can appeal anytime before he returns to first. If the runner goes by and is scranbling to get back, you must tag him. If he has gone by and is making a relaxed return the F3 can appeal the bag.

[Umpire in Chief]

Great point MST! The BR has to be completely beyond the base w/o touching it to be assumed to be safe. If he still has the opportunity to touch and the ball is there he out.

[therefump]

Here's one we've been chewing over the last few meetings. High school baseball

Batter hits the ball to F6, F6 bobbles the ball which creates a close play at first. The BR passes first base before the ball gets there but does not touch the bag. The ball get there shortly after and the F3 touches the bag. What are the BU mechanics? Does he /she call safe or out because the runner never touched the bag, is it a no call??? Half of the crew says you call safe and wait for a defensive appeal, some say you call out because he never touched the bag. What are your thoughts?

T

Runner is called OUT. Umpire does not indicate Safe or Out until there is a call to be made. I think everyone is overthinking this situation. :BD:

[LMSANS]

Runner is called OUT. Umpire does not indicate Safe or Out until there is a call to be made. I think everyone is overthinking this situation.

I think you're missing the boat on this one Roy.

See MSTaylor's post above. I couldn't state it any clearer.:HD:

[noumpere]

Mr Umpire is correct that you show safe.

I agree with all of your post and would clarify that the umpire should make the exact same call / signal he would had the runner touched the base.

It's usually close enough that a casual "safe" is needed, but if F3 doesn't catch the throw and the ball is on the ground and BR is now 3 steps past the bag, a "no-call" is probably appropriate.

[catoblue]

Small-diamond perspective:

In LL, the BR is out per 6.05(i)

6.05 -- A Batter is out when -

(i) after hitting a fair ball, the batter-runner or first base is tagged before said batter-runner touches first base.

Not sure about OBR or Fed, but for the kiddies, it's an out.

It may be oversimplifying, but BR overruns 1B without touching it, immediately followed by F3 receiving the throw and touching the bag before BR returns = first base being tagged before BR touches 1B = OUT.

Edited May 6, 2009 by catoblue

[catoblue]

I just took a peek at OBR, and it's 6.05(j)

[Mr Umpire]

Small-diamond perspective:

In LL, the BR is out per 6.05(i)

6.05 -- A Batter is out when -

(i) after hitting a fair ball, the batter-runner or first base is tagged before said batter-runner touches first base.

Not sure about OBR or Fed, but for the kiddies, it's an out.

It may be oversimplifying, but BR overruns 1B without touching it, immediately followed by F3 receiving the throw and touching the bag before BR returns = first base being tagged before BR touches 1B = OUT.

I don't have it with me but I know the MLBUM addresses this (and the PBUC manual I believe). Both agree on the mechanics to rule the runner safe until it is appealed that he missed 1B. This is why the mechanics are this way. It is what the "big boys" are doing so we will follow it as well.

Until they change, we should not. I know not all umpires get these manuals though they should. And, I know not all umpires know about them. But, once discovered, we should follow them IMO.

Also, as a side note, the runner is assumed to have acquired a base upon passing it(provided he makes a reasonable attempt to touch it and doesn't cut across the infield) for the purposes of allowing runs to score or letting the runner advance to the next base. If not, then we would have to call them out or force them to touch the base before advancing. This forces the defense to do their job and not us to just call something which would make no sense at the time.

[treedog24]

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—

© He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

(d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

Once the runner passes the base it's his (we all agree?) The defense must appeal the miss of the base. So the play would go like this.

F6 to F3, the BR beats the throw but doesn't touch the base. Ball Caught by F3.

Umpire: Safe.

F3: Blue, he didn't touch the bag (saying this while standing on the bag with the ball in his hand or touching the BR while he is off the base.)

Umpire: Runner is out on appeal or he's out! (SELL, SELL, SELL)

Of course, at this point the OC is coming out to ask you what just happened.

[mstaylor]

This IS correct and true even at the LL level. LL has no specific ruling to counteract this and they say when there is no specific directive to follow pro interps.

I had a conversation about this very play Sat with a varsity manager. He was very surprised that we would rule the runner safe but understood once I explain it.

Edited May 7, 2009 by mstaylor