uh oh play

[dumbdumb]

it happens to the best that have a lot of post season assignments. don't want to be picking on others that don't get them and not show the special events guys when a conundrum occurs or a claustramess for them crops up.

what would happen if umpire had been in the infield grass. is that illegal in this situation or is there a choice.

and hasn't somebody mentioned, what we permit we promote in the insuing aftermath from the pitcher to the umpire. should it be handled this way at all levels of play. what would or would not be expected for the umpire to do when the pitcher did what he did and not when the umpire had his back turned nor did the pitcher at other levels of play, MiLB on down to little league.

https://www.totalprosports.com/mlb/reds-caleb-ferguson-umpire-bill-miller-confrontation-viral-video/

[johnnyg08]

I don't think he expected the F4 to come that far over. Esp after that dumpster fire of a half inning for CIN

[MadMax]

@dumbdumb, we should know by now that the Professional game (uppercase P) is an entirely different environment and set of protocols, expectations, and morés than most of us will ever experience. 

 

[JSam21]

On 7/23/2026 at 11:59 PM, MadMax said:

@dumbdumb, we should know by now that the Professional game (uppercase P) is an entirely different environment and set of protocols, expectations, and morés than most of us will ever experience. 

 

Agreed. Big P it is 100% descretion of the official. Any other level he gets run. 

[JSam21]

Bill Miller knows how to work 2nd base on the outside. Bill Miller has taught many of his fellow MLB umpires how to work 2nd base on the outside. No matter what Bill did here, he would have been in someone's way. His movements were the "high percentage" ones to make as rarely is F4 going to come across to get this ball. This is F6's ball all the way and Bill movements are such because of that. 

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

No matter what Bill did here, he would have been in someone's way. His movements were the "high percentage" ones to make as rarely is F4 going to come across to get this ball. This is F6's ball all the way and Bill movements are such because of that. 

And amateur guys wonder why those of us who do upper-level stuff are reticent about teaching / mentoring others on actions / movements / mechanics of an… advanced(?) method. Especially when they (the potential trainee) enter the interaction armed with “what they saw the Pros do” or “on TV”. 
Ya get into that whole “forbidden fruit” realm, where what the Pros do becomes the thing you/they (the trainee) cannot do, and you’re the mean, arrogant instructor who either doesn’t know anything, or is “keepin’ them down”. Then ya get a percentage of those trainees that tell themselves, “Well, I’m gonna do <this> anyway!” 

We keep losing or ignoring context. 

I do admit, I myself am sardonic with Little League, especially on this topic (mechanics, actions & movements, et. al. and training therein). It’s because I’ll be on a complex somewhere in middle America, and I’ll encounter the aged LL umpire and the younger, learned-off-MLB.tv-channel umpire, sometimes not only working the same complex, but even working the same game 😱! Inevitability, the friction and discord starts, and it’s often on the most inane of things, such as “how to take a play at 2B”. 

[JSam21]

On 7/27/2026 at 11:06 AM, MadMax said:

And amateur guys wonder why those of us who do upper-level stuff are reticent about teaching / mentoring others on actions / movements / mechanics of an… advanced(?) method. Especially when they (the potential trainee) enter the interaction armed with “what they saw the Pros do” or “on TV”. 
Ya get into that whole “forbidden fruit” realm, where what the Pros do becomes the thing you/they (the trainee) cannot do, and you’re the mean, arrogant instructor who either doesn’t know anything, or is “keepin’ them down”. Then ya get a percentage of those trainees that tell themselves, “Well, I’m gonna do <this> anyway!” 

We keep losing or ignoring context. 

I do admit, I myself am sardonic with Little League, especially on this topic (mechanics, actions & movements, et. al. and training therein). It’s because I’ll be on a complex somewhere in middle America, and I’ll encounter the aged LL umpire and the younger, learned-off-MLB.tv-channel umpire, sometimes not only working the same complex, but even working the same game 😱! Inevitability, the friction and discord starts, and it’s often on the most inane of things, such as “how to take a play at 2B”. 

And I want it to be clear... I'm a D3 nobody who is mediocre at best, so I don't proclaim to be an expert at anything. However, I'm smart enough to know that there are people who are much better and smarter than me who I should listen to. I discussed this situation over breakfast with a current MLB umpire (humble brag) last week. My previous comment is exactly what he told me. There are often times where a situation occurs for the players that they are going to be SOL even though they did everything they were supposed to do. An example is the video of the squeeze play where the bunt goes straight down, the runner slides, and hinders the catcher fielding the batted ball... Stuff happens. 

The best umpires in the world work 2nd base roughly 30 times a year... No one at the amateur level is working that position that many times in a season. I have worked 2nd base in the 4 umpire system exactly 4 times... ever. The MLB umpires get reps there and still struggle with the mechanics of working outside. We work inside because we have the reps of working inside at 2nd base within every other system we work. It is truly baffling to me how many mechanics "experts" come out of the woodwork when these types of plays happen. Especially when those experts have ZERO experience actually working the system that they are pontificating on. Those are likely the same people who make statements at camps instead of asking questions. 

[Velho]

I'll echo the sentiment: I'm not MLB, NCAA, or even HS currently. No breakfasts but have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express multiple times...

The question I have is: what is there to learn from this play?

I have experience (inequivalent level, minor difficulty, barely the same, but experience nonetheless) with outside U2 in a 4 umpire crew since the last few years I've been doing 15-20 4 umpire games a year (and work with folks doing 30-50+ a year during that time period). I only did 4 U2s this year (including my final game of the season last week) since others needed the U2 reps for their upcoming assignments.

The thing that struck me about this play was that U2 was inside F6 and F4. Our manual pushes us hard to get close to the bag and fielders but never closer to the plate than they are. With infielders wide, I'll get as little as a foot behind them (but still outside a 10 foot circle centered on them).

It's precarious and you've got to be on your toes.

[jimurrayalterego]

27 minutes ago, Velho said:

I'll echo the sentiment: I'm not MLB, NCAA, or even HS currently. No breakfasts but have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express multiple times...

The question I have is: what is there to learn from this play?

I have experience (inequivalent level, minor difficulty, barely the same, but experience nonetheless) with outside U2 in a 4 umpire crew since the last few years I've been doing 15-20 4 umpire games a year (and work with folks doing 30-50+ a year during that time period). I only did 4 U2s this year (including my final game of the season last week) since others needed the U2 reps for their upcoming assignments.

The thing that struck me about this play was that U2 was inside F6 and F4. Our manual pushes us hard to get close to the bag and fielders but never closer to the plate than they are. With infielders wide, I'll get as little as a foot behind them (but still outside a 10 foot circle centered on them).

It's precarious and you've got to be on your toes.

I think LL has U2 outside for different reasons than MLB umps who choose outside and that location is closer. I'm not sure of those reasons.

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I think LL has U2 outside for different reasons than MLB umps who choose outside and that location is closer.

Do we know why MLB U2s go outside?

[dumbdumb]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Do we know why MLB U2s go outside?

maybe this started it, or they are going back to the red coat days when AL used it a lot.

https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/umpire-joe-west-hit-throw-stolen-base/468407

 

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

Do we know why MLB U2s go outside?

Because they are not in Toronto, Arizona, Seattle, Houston, Milwaukee, Miami, or Texas? (Or Tampa Bay on some days.)

[The Man in Blue]

Laz Diaz would have given it back.  "Catch the f@#king ball!  Ya' f@#cking clumsy, uncoordinated f@#cker!"

[JSam21]

17 hours ago, Velho said:

I'll echo the sentiment: I'm not MLB, NCAA, or even HS currently. No breakfasts but have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express multiple times...

The question I have is: what is there to learn from this play?

I have experience (inequivalent level, minor difficulty, barely the same, but experience nonetheless) with outside U2 in a 4 umpire crew since the last few years I've been doing 15-20 4 umpire games a year (and work with folks doing 30-50+ a year during that time period). I only did 4 U2s this year (including my final game of the season last week) since others needed the U2 reps for their upcoming assignments.

The thing that struck me about this play was that U2 was inside F6 and F4. Our manual pushes us hard to get close to the bag and fielders but never closer to the plate than they are. With infielders wide, I'll get as little as a foot behind them (but still outside a 10 foot circle centered on them).

It's precarious and you've got to be on your toes.

I think what we can learn from the play is two fold.

1) MLB umpires are paid to get calls right, therefore they do things that umpires at lower levels shouldn't neccessarily do. Now before someone comes on and says "BUT WE ARE ALL PAID TO GET CALLS RIGHT!!!"... They have comprehensive health insurance and will continue to get paid when injured... we will not. They have the ability to get reps in positions that we do not have the abilty to do. That is what I mean.

2) Sometimes we are just SOL on certain plays. Working this type of mechanic is HARD. I mean very hard. People with 30-40 games a year at 2nd base still strugle with it at times. 

 

[JSam21]

16 hours ago, Velho said:

Do we know why MLB U2s go outside?

It allows them to work 2nd base the full 360 degrees... just like the plate. It is required even more so since the runners can't slide through the base and not be in jeopardy to be put out. 2nd base has some of the most dynamic play types because of the various angles at which throws can originate from. 

[Velho]

19 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I think LL has U2 outside for different reasons than MLB umps who choose outside and that location is closer. I'm not sure of those reasons.

LL goes outside on the 60' field for same reasons as softball. Inside is just too close. LL is inside on the 70' and 90' field.

As for a closer initial starting position, which they do across the board, my take is it's about having mechanics across a wide variety of umpires with differing skill and mobility. I adjust to a given situation, even if it's outside the instructions, based on the given game players abilities, my mobility, and the field (most of which aren't so great). 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

2nd base has some of the most dynamic play types because of the various angles at which throws can originate from. 

👍

“There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.”

― Thomas Sowell,

[jimurrayalterego]

31 minutes ago, Velho said:

LL goes outside on the 60' field for same reasons as softball. Inside is just too close. LL is inside on the 70' and 90' field.

 

Other 60' orgs seem to keep the BU inside. 2man BUs do shade their B further back. I thought softball and LL have them outside for watching leaving the base.

[jimurrayalterego]

3 hours ago, JSam21 said:

It allows them to work 2nd base the full 360 degrees... just like the plate. It is required even more so since the runners can't slide through the base and not be in jeopardy to be put out. 2nd base has some of the most dynamic play types because of the various angles at which throws can originate from. 

I pulled up about 20 MLB videos of R1 with out at 2B. A little more than half had U2 outside. The distance from the grass varied some. Based on positioning I would say they all would be subject to UI but with more time to react. It looks like they don't go out on fly balls as that would have crews to have two sets of mechanics.

[Velho]

15 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I thought softball and LL have them outside for watching leaving the base.

Huh. Thanks. Not sure why that didn't occur to me.

Regardless, in case it's not clear, I don't have an issue with U2 being outside in a 4 umpire crew.

[MadMax]

On 7/28/2026 at 1:19 PM, JSam21 said:

The best umpires in the world work 2nd base roughly 30 times a year... No one at the amateur level is working that position that many times in a season.

So true. However, the MLB Umpires are performing the U2 with equal opportunity, not assigned specifically or selectively to that U2 role because “that umpire” is more proficient / “better” / longer tenured / or he’s someone’s Tuesday night drinking buddy. 
As a consequence, it behooves MLB to train all Umpires (at that level) to a baseline, effective curriculum of how to operate at U2. Of course, with experience, some Umpires will introduce or experiment with adjustments or enhancements, and – here comes the essential component, failing or lacking in the amateur world – they share these practices with their colleagues, enriching the entire group. 

Where is this in the amateur landscape??!! 
Or, to ask it more crassly, why do I have to spend $400 to attend a 4-man camp??!!

On 7/28/2026 at 1:19 PM, JSam21 said:

I have worked 2nd base in the 4 umpire system exactly 4 times... ever.

I was educated (“trained”) on U2 by two of the best – in my professional opinion – because not only did they have the knowledge, but they had the demeanor and wherewithal to be great educators-of-this-discipline. One was a long-time amateur and association head; the other is an ex-MLB / current NCAA CWS CC. The two gentlemen imparted their wisdom and practices on me, such that not only have I worked some two-to-three dozen games at U2, but I’ve also been requested to train others beginning to perform the U2 role in 4-man and 6-man deployments. 
I’m not saying this to one-up you; I’m saying this to expose the uses and need for it in the amateur game, and the contempt I hold for our compatriots who withhold this knowledge behind a power trip, or some fleecing “pay to play” scheme. 

On 7/28/2026 at 1:19 PM, JSam21 said:

It is truly baffling to me how many mechanics "experts" come out of the woodwork when these types of plays happen. Especially when those experts have ZERO experience actually working the system that they are pontificating on.

Envy and contempt. 

Envy of the prestige of working that level / role; contempt for the guys working that level, believing that they wouldn’t make “that” mistake. 

On 7/28/2026 at 2:28 PM, Velho said:

The question I have is: what is there to learn from this play?

The Professional context is wholly separate from the amateur context, and in that environment, the Umpire would be a fool to Eject the Pro player who gave him grief, and he’s not a lesser umpire because of it… unlike some of our colleagues mistakenly believe. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

The Professional context is wholly separate from the amateur context, and in that environment, the Umpire would be a fool to Eject the Pro player who gave him grief, and he’s not a lesser umpire because of it…

I wholeheartedly agree with this. 

[dumbdumb]

18 hours ago, Velho said:

I wholeheartedly agree with this. 

and he is working towards tying that more modern day (80's on) record of 6 WS's in a career with Montague, Davis, and West. And the record shows WS in 2017, 2020, 2023 so an upcoming 2026 selection to tie the record could definitely be in the works.