Malicious Contact

[BigBlue4u]

We are often given video examples of malicious contact by the offense. Here is an example of MC by the defense.

Egregious College Baseball Ejection Sparks Bench-Clearing Scuffle

[jimurrayalterego]

45 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

We are often given video examples of malicious contact by the offense. Here is an example of MC by the defense.

Egregious College Baseball Ejection Sparks Bench-Clearing Scuffle

No it's not. Runner violated collision rule. Put shoulder down and did not attempt to avoid collision or tag.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Here is an example of MC by the defense.

It's not MC by the defense. It is a hard tag. We've seen worse (tags). 

Edited to add: Furthermore, it is unfair (to amateur umpires) to use this particular play as an Exhibit (of MC) for HS. These are college / "semi"-adults. These two (F1 and BR) are roughly similar body mass; in HS, the comparative disparity is wide-ranging. We can't declare "Malicious Contact!" just because a kid went flying. Best to keep to context. 

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Runner violated collision rule. Put shoulder down and did not attempt to avoid collision or tag.

F1 brought the collision to BR, not the other way around. While I'm agreeing with you that it was not MC by the defense, the offense was not Ejected for "Collision Rule Violation" or MC; my hunch is that BR was ejected for retaliation – physical and verbal – towards F1. 

Edited March 23 by MadMax
Edited to add Context for HS

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

 

 

F1 brought the collision to BR, not the other way around. While I'm agreeing with you that it was not MC by the defense, the offense was not Ejected for "Collision Rule Violation" or MC; my hunch is that BR was ejected for retaliation – physical and verbal – towards F1. 

F1 brought the tag to the BR. The BR did not comply with: "3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if they can reach the base without colliding." You can eject for flagrant violation of the collision rule but I think you are right as to ejection for after the collision action.

[BLWizzRanger]

I dont see the runner needing to avoid the contact as there was no defensive player in his path. The F1 came from and tagged him on his left side.

And the F1 reared back, put his shoulder down and put extra effort in his tag such that he extended his arms. This was not a normal tag.

I have MC since the F1 reared back and gave him extra. A normal tag would not have propelled the BR 4 or 5 feet to his right. He might have still fell on a normal tag but he wouldnt have had his left shoulder lifted up up over his head.

How were they able to finish the game? Benches cleared and position players left their positions. What descretion did the umpires use?

[The Man in Blue]

I found a non-Xitter version to watch on Reddit.  I'm with @BLWizzRanger.  There was no collision for BR to avoid.  F1 chased him down from the side and checked up.  F1 did not run through him.  F1 did not put a tag out.  F1 did not reach on a tag.  F1 loaded and unloaded on impact.  I have MC on the defense.

I have long use the "load/unload" as one of my standards for MC.  Bracing for impact often looks like loading, but does not have an "unload" step.  

As for the bench clearing aspect, I have always wondered that.  I thought you were supposed to go if you left your position.

[WIUMP]

I’ve got MC on F1, but I’m open to being talked off it if there’s something I’m missing from other angles or on-field info.

Here’s where I’m at:

• F1 is running at BR — not the other way around. So I don’t have anything on BR here.
• After fielding, F1 gets his head up. This isn’t a bang-bang, one-motion field-and-tag where incidental contact just happens.
• The force of the tag feels excessive relative to what’s needed to secure the out. This is the “unload” @The Man in Blue referenced.
• And while it’s not part of the MC decision itself, F1’s behavior after the play doesn’t exactly sell “whoopsies, hard tag, my bad.”

My gut reaction watching live: in a HS game, we’re probably getting F1 (MC or possibly post-play) and there’s a decent chance BR gets run as well.

Obviously, we’re working off one angle and no on-field audio with the benefit of watching over and over.

[BigBlue4u]

Thanks for all the input. This is why MC can be so hard to call consistently.  And, it may be the very reason the NFHS consistently denies requests to add the definition to the rulebook.

 

 

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

As for the bench clearing aspect, I have always wondered that.  I thought you were supposed to go if you left your position

We can quibble all we want on if either player committed MC… But this is the question I want answered. How did this game continue? There should have been about 40 ejections. With at least BR getting 4 games for fighting, and all the others ejected plus one game  for “leaving the vicinity of the dugout, bullpen, or position on the field at the time of a potential altercation or fight. “
What am I missing? 

[WIUMP]

5 minutes ago, Richvee said:

We can quibble all we want on if either player committed MC… But this is the question I want answered. How did this game continue? There should have been about 40 ejections. With at least BR getting 4 games for fighting, and all the others ejected plus one game  for “leaving the vicinity of the dugout, bullpen, or position on the field at the time of a potential altercation or fight. “
What am I missing? 

"To eliminate the existing ambiguity within the "fight rule" to ensure a more
consistent understanding and application as described to eliminate undue ejections and
suspensions for players who do not participate or incite a fight. As a result, only players
who are deemed to have participated (including through the use of video review, when
available) in a physical altercation or confrontation shall be penalized."

Granted, I am no expert in the NCAA rule code, but this was issued in 2024.

[BLWizzRanger]

9 hours ago, Richvee said:

We can quibble all we want on if either player committed MC… But this is the question I want answered. How did this game continue? There should have been about 40 ejections. With at least BR getting 4 games for fighting, and all the others ejected plus one game  for “leaving the vicinity of the dugout, bullpen, or position on the field at the time of a potential altercation or fight. “
What am I missing? 

A couple of theory's here.

1. Crew Chief was ex-MLBer and applied the MLB rule to this situation, stating 'this is how we do it in the show.'

2. They decided to charge the defensive team with one Coach and Player conferences each while also using one offensive conference.

2a.  They included the NFHS defensive meeting clause for good measure.

3. And being serious here, maybe it was a travel day and they decided to err of the safe side and play the game out.  If it wasn't a travel day, maybe they stop the game, get conference direction, and conclude the game the next day before the regularly scheduled game? 

I have no idea on how they continued the game.

 

[BLWizzRanger]

9 hours ago, Matthew Turner said:

"To eliminate the existing ambiguity within the "fight rule" to ensure a more
consistent understanding and application as described to eliminate undue ejections and
suspensions for players who do not participate or incite a fight. As a result, only players
who are deemed to have participated (including through the use of video review, when
available) in a physical altercation or confrontation shall be penalized."

Granted, I am no expert in the NCAA rule code, but this was issued in 2024.

The actual rule reads (5-15 (c) 3:

Any team personnel (other than coaches) who leave the dugout, bullpen, or their positions on the field to approach the immediate location of a verbal or physical altercation or fight shall be ejected and suspended for one game.  All team personnel (including coaches) who leave their positions and participate in a fight shall be ejected and suspended for the team's next four contests.

Note 1. A player involved in a fight while remaining in their position on the field and judged to have been acting in self-defense and not contributing to the fight shall not be ejected or suspended.

Note 2. If a player or coach makes physical contact with another player in a obvious attempt to prevent a fight or confrontation, that individual shall not be ejected or suspended.

Maybe that is the loophole?  Yes, they left the bench, bullpen, positions to approach the immediate location, however, (note 2) they didn't didn't make physical contact or escalate the situation. 

I guess you can argue too that just because they left their positions, but, just stood around not contributing ('did not participate' ) to the altercation, they can't or shouldn't be ejected.

Just when you think you have a cut and dried ruling, the clauses always gives an out...

[grayhawk]

11 hours ago, Richvee said:

We can quibble all we want on if either player committed MC… But this is the question I want answered. How did this game continue? There should have been about 40 ejections. With at least BR getting 4 games for fighting, and all the others ejected plus one game  for “leaving the vicinity of the dugout, bullpen, or position on the field at the time of a potential altercation or fight. “
What am I missing? 

That was my second thought (first one being that F1 committed MC). And also how they were able to write down all the numbers of the players that left their positions to approach the immediate area of the altercation. This will probably be in next year's clinic, but I'd sure like to see something sooner from Gosney.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

That was my second thought (first one being that F1 committed MC). And also how they were able to write down all the numbers of the players that left their positions to approach the immediate area of the altercation. This will probably be in next year's clinic, but I'd sure like to see something sooner from Gosney.

I had a similar bench clearer a few years ago. We stopped the game. In a follow up zoom meeting that night with my assignor, we wrote the report by listing the few people on the field that didn't approach the scrum. Every bench player, including bullpens, were ejected and one game. We picked two two main culprits from each team and gave them 4. Granted this was a little more than in the OP..But still. I thought the new interp was just not to eject guys that may step out of the dugout and stay away from the actual scrum. 

 

[The Man in Blue]

I was curious about more details, @Richvee . . . but AI says it never happened.  🙄

 

According to Google results, SUNY Ulster recently played their first games in over three years.  Those were some heavy-@ss suspensions you guys handed out!  🤣

[Richvee]

9 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I was curious about more details, @Richvee . . . but AI says it never happened.  🙄

Yup. I made it up🤣 I’m a wiz at video editing 🤣🤣

I would have to look at the ejection report, but F1 and R3 got 4, then someone who ran in from the RF pen reignited the fight, got 4 along with another Ulster guy who just started throwing haymakers in the second “round”. 

[The Man in Blue]

1 minute ago, Richvee said:

Yup. I made it up🤣 Om a wiz at video editing 🤣🤣

I wondered why you had six fingers and two lazy eyes in that video . . . it was AI generated!  😋

 

Man, that coach was PISSED.  I couldn't turn it up loud enough to get all of it though.  Was he as hot at you guys as he was at his players?

 

[Richvee]

10 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

.  Was he as hot at you guys as he was at his players?

No. He had no gripe with us. The whole thing came out of nowhere. You see the score? Both teams were very lighthearted sort of playing out the innings. Then, out of nowhere, T3 tags up, forearms F1 backing up and yells out “stay out of my F’in way. And all hell broke loose. 
Both coaches were screaming. It was crazy. Coaches were actually apologetic and understood the rule and why we couldn’t continue. 

[orangebird]

I understand D3 budgets might be a little limited but I think that's the first time I've seen footage of a game filmed from seemingly a building across the street lol

[The Man in Blue]

I forgot to come back to that point, @orangebird -- thank you for making it!

My son moved up to D2 this year and was writing 2 ejections reports this weekend.  He was watching video of the incident (arguing balls and strikes), and I peaked over his shoulder.  It looked to me as if the visiting team shot the footage from their home field.