Walk off, Interference, Throw Out of Play...But...Did How Many Likes Did the Video Get?

[johnnyg08]

 

Lots happening here...the clip doesn't show the ball being thrown out of play by the F8 b/c he thought the game was over on the double...but that's what happened and that's how the game ended. 

Have fun! 

[Velho]

"Teammate assistance" was knocking him down? Or the "oh crap" arm extended to help him up but not actually help him up (that I see)?

Also, that's a dead ball on the INT. When did the F8 thrown ball go out of play?

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

"Teammate assistance" was knocking him down? Or the "oh crap" arm extended to help him up but not actually help him up (that I see)?

Also, that's a dead ball on the INT. When did the F8 thrown ball go out of play?

Are you calling Coach/Teammate assist INT? If so it's delayed dead.

[grayhawk]

That's not physical assistance, and shouldn't have been called (whether it's legal or illegal for a teammate to assist). It was more like physical deterrence.

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Are you calling Coach/Teammate assist INT?

I'm not. I'm with @grayhawk. That's offense on offense hindrance. Play on.

18 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

If so it's delayed dead.

I thought at first too (and could still be wrong) but Coach Assistance (I don't see teammate assist explicitly elsewhere) is under 6.01(a) which, for all sections (this is (8)), states 

PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE:

The runner is out and the ball is dead.

What's a cite for delayed dead ball?

 

[jimurrayalterego]

15 minutes ago, Velho said:

I'm not. I'm with @grayhawk. That's offense on offense hindrance. Play on.

I thought at first too (and could still be wrong) but Coach Assistance (I don't see teammate assist explicitly elsewhere) is under 6.01(a) which, for all sections (this is (8)), states 

PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE:

The runner is out and the ball is dead.

What's a cite for delayed dead ball?

 

You will have to take my word for it that CC in my 2011 BRD says the PBUC staff says the ball stays live. @grayhawk went to the trouble of searching his WUM in a previous thread and posted this:

"The WUM says the following:

"Any runner is out while the ball is in play, when:

A member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, physically assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base [7.09 (h)].  The umpire will immediately call out the offending runner, though the ball is left in play and other runners are in jeopardy of being put out."

Here's the rub.  The text of 7.09 (h) [old numbering] is as follows:

"In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base;"

NOTHING about other members of the offensive team.  To my knowledge, there is no official interpretation in MLBUM or MiLBUM.  The BRD says it's a "Point not covered" for OBR but references the WUM cite quoted above."

We also have Jim Evans as citing:

"PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE:

The runner is out and the ball is dead."

as one of the errors in the OBR book.

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

"PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE:

The runner is out and the ball is dead."

as one of the errors in the OBR book.

LL RIM does clean this up

[BigBlue4u]

By rule, what happened is NOT obstruction.  Read the first sentence of the rule. (NFHS)

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

By rule, what happened is NOT obstruction.  Read the first sentence of the rule. (NFHS)

I don't think the announcers can hear you.

[jimurrayalterego]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

LL RIM does clean this up

Kudus to LL for being aware of this interp which was not in earlier PBUCS or MLBUMs where we would leave it live whether being played on or not. The Youtube author posted this:

"Here's what I found in the MiLBUM: 6.8 Rule 6.01(a)(8) The touching of a runner alone does not constitute physically assisting; however, when the touching improves the runner's chances of accomplishing his goal (retreating or advancing) it should be interpreted as physically assisting. A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc) are not allowed to assist. When a play is being made on the assisted runner, the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the penalty: The runner is out and all runners return to the bases occupied at the time of the interference (assistance) If no play is being made on the assisted runner, the umpire shall signal that the runner is out and allow the ball to remain alive. This enforcement principle permits the defensive team to make plays on other runners if possible. Although not specifically covered in the OBR, this ruling is based on common sense and fair play. If the ball were to instantly to become dead at the time of the interference (assistance) the offensive team could always control the status of the ball by grabbing a nearby player."

While LL has kept up with the MLB approach, NFHS and NCAA have not, keeping the ball alive no matter play or no play.

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

The Youtube author posted this:

Good find @johnnyg08!

[Velho]

cough 🚚 https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/d73f-3191917/2019_MLB_Umpire_Manual-1.pdf

[johnnyg08]

So....by rule or interp, can we really get an out on this? There's definitely no assistance. There's dumb thing happening..but the ball is out by the CF fence. There's no play. 

What did they use to get an out? 

My manual is not current so it's possible something changed...but typically these aren't the rules that get scrutinized in the same way as collisions at home plate or double play safety.

[Replacematt]

50 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

So....by rule or interp, can we really get an out on this? There's definitely no assistance. There's dumb thing happening..but the ball is out by the CF fence. There's no play. 

What did they use to get an out? 

Did they have an out when all was said and done?

Of note: their promotion for the game was Wild Wednesday.

[johnnyg08]

I haven't looked at the play by play if it exists. 

In the clip, the PU is signaling an out. And that would be the only 'out' I could find in this play. 

 

 

[Velho]

21 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I haven't looked at the play by play if it exists. 

R3 & R1 scored. R2 putout credited to F2.

https://www.milb.com/gameday/isotopes-vs-aces/2025/05/21/779935/final/summary/all

[johnnyg08]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

R3 & R1 scored. R2 putout credited to F2.

https://www.milb.com/gameday/isotopes-vs-aces/2025/05/21/779935/final/summary/all

Nice work. 

[Velho]

Let's push this further...

Assume the off bench teammate did assist R2 in getting back to his feet. There is a logical (non-rulebook) argument that it's no net impact, i.e. teammate knocked him down, teammate picked him up, R2 still disadvantaged on the whole.

Still grabbing the out on Assistance?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Let's push this further...

Assume the off bench teammate did assist R2 in getting back to his feet. There is a logical (non-rulebook) argument that it's no net impact, i.e. teammate knocked him down, teammate picked him up, R2 still disadvantaged on the whole.

Still grabbing the out on Assistance?

I would get an out on that.  (I haven't watched the OP)

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

Let's push this further...

Assume the off bench teammate did assist R2 in getting back to his feet. There is a logical (non-rulebook) argument that it's no net impact, i.e. teammate knocked him down, teammate picked him up, R2 still disadvantaged on the whole.

Still grabbing the out on Assistance?

Yep. Did they assist at that point in time?

If R2 rounds 3B and runs into the coach and falls, and the coach helps them up, is it any different? I think everyone here would call that and have no second thoughts about it.

[The Man in Blue]

Is it bothering anybody else that we are not discussing the players leaving the bench during a live ball?  I know there is no immediate penalty (team warning, future ejections), but . . . there is potential there to make an interference argument, as the outfielder was confused by the offense storming the field and thought the game was over at that point.

Or maybe players out of the dugout is just one of my grumpire, pushbutton issues. 

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Is it bothering anybody else that we are not discussing the players leaving the bench during a live ball?  I know there is no immediate penalty (team warning, future ejections), but . . . there is potential there to make an interference argument, as the outfielder was confused by the offense storming the field and thought the game was over at that point.

Or maybe players out of the dugout is just one of my grumpire, pushbutton issues. 

Saw it. It's pro ball. Not a second thought. And interference would be a huge stretch.

[johnnyg08]

I'm still unsure how they're justifying an out. 

So, let's say that they'd protest the out call based on the idea that there was no assistance and the rule was misapplied. 

Or would it simply be denied under the thought that whether the player/coach assisted the runner was judgment? 

[Velho]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

So, let's say that they'd protest the out call based on the idea that there was no assistance and the rule was misapplied. 

Or would it simply be denied under the thought that whether the player/coach assisted the runner was judgment?

I think that's going to depend on how carefully PU chooses his words when explaining it to the coach.